1. #51
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To many things can happen that are not visable from the inside. Condition changes visable only from the outside may be missed. Many radio messages can be missed while working inside. Information that civilains or property owners may have about contents, occupancy or structural conditions will not reach the firefighters. My assumption is that your jumpseat firefighters are fully trained and competent to stretch the line and make firefighting decisions. I see no need for an officer to supervise them if they have been trained and understand the basic departments firefighting objectives.
    LA,

    At fires structure fires, do you think more firefighter burn injuries and deaths occur inside or outside the building?

    So what about the conditions on the inside that you will miss from the outside? What about the missed radio messages you speak of when you are outside and your crew is inside? If everyone is competent, like you say and good SOP's are in place, everyone will be much safer with extra hands and experience on the inside looking over things with the complete knowledge of interior conditions than with a competent guy with years of experience guessing what is going on with the younger guys inside.

    At a routine room and contents fire, what is the pressing outside IC activities? Getting an ETA on the power company or updating the Alarm Office of the incident status? Who cares? Make sure the fire goes out and worry letting people hear you "command" the incident on the radio later.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  2. #52
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    236

    Default

    Like some the aggressive firefighters have said, the company officer's place is with his company.

    Here we do something called "fast attack" which means the company officer is going with his guys to fight the fire and the next arriving officer assumes the IC position.

    Unless you are lame-a** officer, you want to be the first one there, especially in your own district.

  3. #53
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    How is an Engine officer to update the chief as to the conditions and progress upon the Chiefs arrival if he is in the street?
    Well, someone's gotta be on the street since the Chief is holed up in a SUV half a block away

  4. #54
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    This is something I never understood. Why when the company officer arrives does he send his men into battle without supervision on the handline. The nozzle team will be the closest to the fire and in the most dangerous of circumstances and to not have an officer inside evaulating the situation and progress (if any) is beyond foolish.

    Yet presumably another company lets say a Ladder Co. (or company acting in the capacity of a Ladder) and this Engine Co. officer is to give orders to another company officer? Does the 2nd Arriving officer not know dept procedures? Is he incapable of coordinating his companies efforts with the Engine officer? Why does he become subserviant to the first arriving officer? Since when is an Engine officer going to give commands to a Ladder Co. officer as to what he and his men are to do?

    How is an Engine officer to update the chief as to the conditions and progress upon the Chiefs arrival if he is in the street?

    FTM-PTB
    Fred,

    You lost me a little. My original reply to this thread on page 1:
    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You'll find me inside with my company.
    In the post above, I forgot to type in truck companies. It was suppose to say that we routinely split truck companies, but engine companies for the most part stay together.

    Here, officers do go with their crew. When truck companies split, the officer teams up with a guy to go inside, the other 2 take care of outside duties and then meet back up with the other guys inside.


    As far as the rest goes, the first in officer just has command because he got their first. Engine officers are not perceived as being higher than truck officers or vice versa. I guess here it is more like an accountability thing. For example, a small room and contents job that arrive 1st to mandates that the 2nd engine lay a supply line per SOP. As IC, I could stop that task, but be responsible for it. Or I could call for extra equipment as IC, but not as an on scene engine officer arriving 2nd or 3rd due.

    Truck work kinda goes the same way. They operate under their own officer and SOP's, but can be given a task by an engine officer that is IC the same way as if the IC were a Chief. Any task given would be mandated by SOP's any way.

    Also keep in mind that here, this generally only lasts about 1-3 minutes before a Chief arrives on the scene and all companies will most likely be operating by SOP's anyway.

    Truth be told, the initial arriving IC is just the guy they're gonna nail if you have a rekindle!!

    And on most small, regular incidents, we transfer command over the radio.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 05-09-2007 at 12:40 PM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  5. #55
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by plisken View Post
    not a jab at you or NIMS. We are forced to take NIMS up through 200, Officers through 400... We have found NIMS has nothing to do with fireground ops. Yes so seniors feel we must follow NIMS to the letter.. This does not work in small career depts. LAfire feels he needs to stay outside I am fine with that if he feels he has one else comming to take control.... In our case the driver becomes incident command or we pass command. that is what works for us... Just throwing out a new way of doing things when it comes to smaller city departments... As for NIMS I think they have butchered a system that works well and tried to make it into something that the government ageincies can feel good about. I could be wrong! but thats another discussion..

    Ok, it looked like you were taking what I said and intentionally saying ICS was what I just said was not really a part of ICS.

    I see a lot of these large incident, vests, everybody has a cool title posts.

    I know in many areas this is what ICS has come to be, but as someone who has worked under ICS for going on 15 years, that is not really what ICS is about. I've seen the vests but I rarely see them used, they are not neccessary in most cases, even the large incident management teams don't use them, they just have name tags with thier position (I think that is just a courtesy to help people avoid unknowingly walking up to the IC and saying how F'd up the IC is ) .

    ICS works fine on small fires, like you said you have an IC and an attack group, investigation group what ever depending on your incident, sometime that group is just known as engine 1 (or what ever), shocking I know

    I have seen these departments you speak of, that will have a simple medical and they have an IC, OPS, Logistics (the guy filling out the PCR), band aid group (the guy putting on the band aid), supply unit leader (the guy getting stuff out of the EMS bag), comm unit (the guy calling the kid with the skinned knee's mother), transport group (the mother).

    This is not actually in ICS and neither is the decision to go in with your crew or stay outside and assume command. These are mutations being adopted by others. If you incident has 17 firefighters on scene and you are handing out 17 vests, you have a problem. For one thing lose the vests, for another at most you only need a position for each Chief and Company officer, maybe. To many people are trying to make ICS way too complicated.


    Memphis I guess that is a benefit of belonging to a large department. I've only worked for small departments with well staffed engines, but no trucks so the engines have to do everything. Most of the time one of the company officers has to step up to Command because their is no chief arriving onscene, or at least not anytime soon (hour +). Since these departments have been Feds either working a 40 hour week or a 2 platoon system if 24 hour coverage everybody has to be capable of bumping up to the next level (FF-> engineer, engineer-> captain, captain -> BC) because they will do so on a regular basis. It is common for one CO to take command and the other to take over interior supervision (whether 1st in or 2nd in takes command depends on the initial conditions).

    Guess its just a little different organization from a well staffed 3 platoon system.

  6. #56
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    478

    Default

    NFA produces a series of training simulators that address this same scenario.

    They are available online or on CD. In each scenario, the student takes the battallion chief role. Listen closely to how the Officer of the first arriving officer on scene addresses this issue on the simulations sometimes.

    He says something like this "Dispatch, Engine 75, Smoke and flames coming from the basement window on the AB corner of a single story home. Initiating interior attack, passing command to the next arriving officer"

    Not saying its right or wrong, but it is a technique that the NFA includes in some of their scenarios.

  7. #57
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Dave,

    Maybe I am just not understanding, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.
    I don't see how you are advocating that the IC has to stay outside in order to be "effective" in scenario 2 and then not agree with it in scenario 1.




    C'mon Dave. I think the entire 2 in/ 2 out policy is a big joke anyway, but your Drivers really routinely standing around the pump panel in an SCBA?? I guess the IC's are Chiefin' in airpacks as well.

    No, your not understanding.

    What I am saying is if your the IC, you need to be outside. You cant call tactics (not good ones anyway) from inside on a hoseline. What I disagree with in scenario 1 is our SOG says if I, as a CO, have a full crew (4) I should stay outside. I think the CO should be in on the line with the rest of his crew. While I disagree with it, I CAN live with it (not that I have a choice). What I will not do as a CO is be IC while interior when we only have 3 on the rig (scenario 2).


    As for the whole 2 in-2 out Im not sure I think its a joke. What I do think is it doesnt (or shouldnt) apply to situations like mine (and yours) were we have an on-duty staff, plenty of resources and the next in rig(s) are close behind. Now, out in Mayberry, with only a driver on the one and only engine shows up and the next due is coming from the next town, sure. Maybe you should wait for some help. Not getting into the "what if you have a rescue" thing, just talking about 2 in- 2 out. And no, that wasnt a slam on the volunteers.

    And no, our drivers do not wear SCBA while pumping. But its in a compartment next to the pump panel, and it only takes 30 seconds to put it on. Like another poster mentioned, Fla is not an OSHA state, so we dont have to follow 2 in- 2 out "to the letter". We adopted and modified it as we saw fit, to improve the safety of our firefighters while meeting the "reality" of our particular situation (minimum manning of 3 FF on a rig, resources, etc).
    Last edited by Dave1983; 05-10-2007 at 11:10 AM.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  8. #58
    Forum Member
    Squad1LT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    215

    Default

    Dave, you said:
    "You cant call tactics (not good ones anyway) from inside on a hoseline"

    Some of the best BC's that I have are the ones that don't say alot on the radio. If you have officers and ffs that know their jobs you shouldn't have to be yelling orders that everyone should already be doing. The second engine should be getting you water, the first truck should be venting the room or the roof if needed. The squad should be searching etc... So there really isnt a whole lot of tactics you should be needing to give on the hoseline. Letting the truck crews know that you need ventilation, or that the fire is in the walls, or that you have victims are some things you need to communicate. But then you wouldn't know about those being outside. Your department's past practice, experience, SOP, training, etc should call alot of the tactics but these are handled before the alarm goes off.

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1LT View Post
    Dave, you said:
    "You cant call tactics (not good ones anyway) from inside on a hoseline"

    Some of the best BC's that I have are the ones that don't say alot on the radio. If you have officers and ffs that know their jobs you shouldn't have to be yelling orders that everyone should already be doing. The second engine should be getting you water, the first truck should be venting the room or the roof if needed. The squad should be searching etc... So there really isnt a whole lot of tactics you should be needing to give on the hoseline. Letting the truck crews know that you need ventilation, or that the fire is in the walls, or that you have victims are some things you need to communicate. But then you wouldn't know about those being outside. Your department's past practice, experience, SOP, training, etc should call alot of the tactics but these are handled before the alarm goes off.

    I agree, but I never said the IC has to say a lot, or yell orders into a radio. All I said was that IMHO, you cant oversee COMPLETE fireground operations. which around here is an ICs job, from inside. Maybe tactics was a poor choice of words.

    And yes,the inside crew is in the best position to report a need for ventilation, ask for ceilings to be pulled, ask for a back-up line or what have you. But you cant see fire comming through a roof, or that its on the floor above you, or that the smoke has changed color or is now pushing, or that you have fire impingment on an exposer, or the roof is sagging or a wall is starting to lean, from inside. Thats what the outside IC is for.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  10. #60
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,109

    Default

    LA...

    Just because in YOUR system you keep one of the first 4 arriving firefighters outside as command doea not make it right or even common practice. BOTH, reread that please, BOTH, of the FD's I am on use the standard, accepted, Brunacini Command practice of the first officer being an active command and being involved in actual firefighting actvities. It is also common practice on BOTH of my FD's that the company officer be with his firefighters when they are inside working. The exception would be if a later arriving company officer would assume command and establish the command post.

    I much prefer the system we use over you automatic taking of that first officer OR senoir firefighter out of the combat role and making him remain outside away from the firefighters he is supposed to supervise and keep safe while they work.

    Frankly every time you post I am more glad than ever that you are almost half a country away from me. Your bizarre ramblings on safety, yet allowing CHILDREN to fight fire, then this command thing....WOW!

    But anyways, do have a nice day.

    FyredUp

  11. #61
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brammer View Post
    I have a question to ask. First, lets assume the following condition: a combination FD with 1st out engine company staffed with four personnel and a chief officer arriving on scene four to five minutes later. Fire conditions will require offensive operations. So, the question is: you as a company officer would estabish command and remain outside and assigns two presonnel (fiefighter 1 and 2) to conduct interior fire attack or would you assume interior operations role with FF1 and pass command to the arriving chief?
    So, getting back to the original question... that depends. I do like to stay with my crew whenever possible. The key to the above question is; what other resources are arriving before the chief, and what are the SOPs for those units. If the answer is nothing, then stay with the crew. If another five units are arriving before the chief then someone is going to have to take command. Again, I prefer to stay with my crew, but if I know the chief is a ways out I have no problem taking command. Usually, my next in engine is about 30 sec to 1 min behind me. I simply take command and have the second in officer take his crew and back up mine so that I have supervision for both crews. One officer can supervise 4 firefighters and 2 lines, no? Then I call that officer "Fire Attack" so I comply with NIMS.

  12. #62
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,524

    Default to answer the original question

    I would do neither.

    I would establish command as the first arriving engine officer and assume a combat role and participate in the appropriate tactic.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  13. #63
    Forum Member
    FDAIC485's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeast aka Dixie
    Posts
    653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I would do neither.

    I would establish command as the first arriving engine officer and assume a combat role and participate in the appropriate tactic.
    This makes far too much sense to me. I forgot where I was for a second.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  14. #64
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,618

    Default

    Fryed ...

    Every thread we seem to butte heads.

    I'll repeat myself. The officer or senior man on the truck is not assigned to that piece of apparatus or the firefighters on it. They are simply riding to the fire on it. Since the majority of our manpower, including initial manpower, arrives by POV, assignments are made at the staging area and are not, except in rare cases, given to incoming apparatus except tyo lay hose, make hydrants, etc. Officers and senior men are taken off apparatus and assigned teams and tasks at staging. So for example, if an incoming officer on a piece may have a particuliar speciality, he may be assigned a crew from staging who mirror his skills and assigned that task. The remaining manpower on that truck will either be sent to staging to become part of the manpower pool or given another senior man as a team leader and assigned a task. The only exception to this is the initial attack piece, who will often stay together, with the exception of the officer, if he is the first officer on scene, he will stay outside as command. If the manpower remaining happens to contain another senior man, besides the senior man or officer who was pulled off, they may work as a crew with that second senior man or officer assigned as team leader.

    I am really trying to figure out what is so wrong with giving your backstep firefighters reponsibility in routine fire attack operations if they are trained for the tasks at hand. Giving them this responsibility allows them to grow professionally. I have no problem with sending 2 of our trained, experienced personel inside during initial attack without an officer. They see the same things that officer or senior firefighter will see, and if they are trained and understand department SOPs and tactics, they should make sound decisions.

    People use the military analogy quite a bit. Are you telling me that when a unit leader tells 2-3 men to take the backside of a building or recon a target, an officer is one of those 2-3 men. Military units routinly assign combat tasks to grunts, so what is so different about this scenerio?

    Memphis..

    Here initial command has many decisons to make. Initial manpower varies greatly so the priorties at a fire this morning will be different if the same fire happens tonight. In what order the apparatus responds is quite variable. Water supply, even on the same road can vary from a 1000 gpm hydrant to no hydrants within 2 miles. The reality is we do not have to consistancy of manpower, apparatus, water supply ans support resources that you enjoy in the city. Every fire brings completly different situations with completely different decisions that go well beyond the ETA of the power company. Again, please explain to me why 2 expereinced jumpseat firefighters need an officer to supervise initial fire attack.

  15. #65
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Memphis,

    I wasn't necessarily refering to your comments.

    FTM-PTB

  16. #66
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fryed ...



    People use the military analogy quite a bit. Are you telling me that when a unit leader tells 2-3 men to take the backside of a building or recon a target, an officer is one of those 2-3 men. Military units routinly assign combat tasks to grunts, so what is so different about this scenerio?

    Actually...yes. It depends on what the mission is, type of unit, and leadership style that officer possesses. A group of 4 people is a Fire Team, and is led by a Corporal. There are 3 fire teams per squad, which is led by a Sgt. The fire company concept is basically that. 1 Engine Co is 3-6 members...and led by a person with a title of Lt or Cpt.....you can substitute Cpl or Sgt for those titles....and you can BET you butt that the Cpl or Sgt will be with thier team or squad making recce. Just as the Capt or Lt should be on either the attack.
    IACOJ Member

  17. #67
    Forum Member
    MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,524

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Memphis..

    Here initial command has many decisons to make. Initial manpower varies greatly so the priorties at a fire this morning will be different if the same fire happens tonight. In what order the apparatus responds is quite variable. Water supply, even on the same road can vary from a 1000 gpm hydrant to no hydrants within 2 miles. The reality is we do not have to consistancy of manpower, apparatus, water supply ans support resources that you enjoy in the city. Every fire brings completly different situations with completely different decisions that go well beyond the ETA of the power company. Again, please explain to me why 2 expereinced jumpseat firefighters need an officer to supervise initial fire attack.
    LA,

    I sincerely understand the picture you are painting. I have vollied in departments that were exactly the same way.

    I guess what I don't understand is if you have so much faith and trust in your firefighters to go interior by themselves without anyone watching their back, why do you not give them enough credit to determine how to establish a water supply without someone in the yard pointing to the hydrant down the street??

    To answer your question, it is not that I do not have faith or trust the guys on my company. Truth be told, they are as good as me or better, but our tasks are different. As line holding firefighters, they are tasked with putting the fire out by whatever means I tell them. They do not pull the line they want, they stretch the line I call for. They are then hands on, actively participating in the extinguishment of the fire from start to finish.

    On tthis point we agree. They cannot be participating and visualizing everything that is going on around them. Where we disagree is that you feep your proper place is in the yard, I feel mine is right there with them. I participate in the tactic only up to the point that we are flowing water unless (rarely) it is just the nozzleman and myself. We almost always have at least one other guy with us immediately. At any rate, I will help make the lay, especially if it is very long, but once we get ready to go in, I am hands off. I am tasked with nothing other than paying attentioin to what is going on around the advancing crew. I am right there with them, maybe a little to the left or right, maybe a step ahead or behind, cheerleading for lack of a better term, and paying attention to surrounding conditions because they are paying attention to one thing - advancing the line and putting the fire out until it is either extinguished or I tell them to quit.

    I will also give you credit on this, while advancing with the crew I am not going to worry a whole lot about who is arriving next in what vehicle, but I trust those people to show up and support the operation.

    Hopefully you can acknowledge that you as an IC cannot protect or advise that advancing engine company. They could be going down a hall leading to 3 or 4 rooms of fire and you wouldn't see the first wisp of orange from the front yard. How can you honestly say that that could be the best place for your senior guy?? Wait, I guess you could sporadically get on the radio and say, "Check that door for heat Tim?"
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  18. #68
    Forum Member
    hoole17's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    17

    Default

    well im a newbie here but all of you are saying your next-in engine is about 30 seconds to one min MAX behind you...there are things you can do; get a FULL SIZE UP- paint a picture of the scene
    by time you have a good size up taken your next in engine should be there and you hsould be ready to rock, tell that officer that hes got it unless he is of lesser experiance, then your stuck taking IC untill your cheif gets there, idk i could be wrong, how would this pan out?
    I reject your reality and substitute my own

  19. #69
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    45

    Smile

    Hi guys, new to forum but here is my view- here in queensland (australia) the full time crews run with four (1 officer, 3 ff's). CO of first arriving pump takes control, does size up requests backup (if needed) and becomes incident commander. The 2 ff's in the rear are the BA team and they mount the fire attack. The driver runs the pump. The officer won't go in unless there is a major problem (e.g- collapse) when he enters with the driver as a rescue team. (2 in, 2 out.).
    Alex

  20. #70
    Forum Member
    FDAIC485's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeast aka Dixie
    Posts
    653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    LA,

    I sincerely understand the picture you are painting. I have vollied in departments that were exactly the same way.

    I guess what I don't understand is if you have so much faith and trust in your firefighters to go interior by themselves without anyone watching their back, why do you not give them enough credit to determine how to establish a water supply without someone in the yard pointing to the hydrant down the street??

    To answer your question, it is not that I do not have faith or trust the guys on my company. Truth be told, they are as good as me or better, but our tasks are different. As line holding firefighters, they are tasked with putting the fire out by whatever means I tell them. They do not pull the line they want, they stretch the line I call for. They are then hands on, actively participating in the extinguishment of the fire from start to finish.

    On tthis point we agree. They cannot be participating and visualizing everything that is going on around them. Where we disagree is that you feep your proper place is in the yard, I feel mine is right there with them. I participate in the tactic only up to the point that we are flowing water unless (rarely) it is just the nozzleman and myself. We almost always have at least one other guy with us immediately. At any rate, I will help make the lay, especially if it is very long, but once we get ready to go in, I am hands off. I am tasked with nothing other than paying attentioin to what is going on around the advancing crew. I am right there with them, maybe a little to the left or right, maybe a step ahead or behind, cheerleading for lack of a better term, and paying attention to surrounding conditions because they are paying attention to one thing - advancing the line and putting the fire out until it is either extinguished or I tell them to quit.

    I will also give you credit on this, while advancing with the crew I am not going to worry a whole lot about who is arriving next in what vehicle, but I trust those people to show up and support the operation.

    Hopefully you can acknowledge that you as an IC cannot protect or advise that advancing engine company. They could be going down a hall leading to 3 or 4 rooms of fire and you wouldn't see the first wisp of orange from the front yard. How can you honestly say that that could be the best place for your senior guy?? Wait, I guess you could sporadically get on the radio and say, "Check that door for heat Tim?"

    You hit the key factor...Trust. As for your actions as a CO, it appears that we learned from the same playbook.

    Note:The man who writes my yearly evaluation also likes my MO and my firefighters haven't asked for a transfer. LOL.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  21. #71
    Forum Member
    Squad1LT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    215

    Default

    "well im a newbie here but all of you are saying your next-in engine is about 30 seconds to one min MAX behind you...there are things you can do; get a FULL SIZE UP- paint a picture of the scene
    by time you have a good size up taken your next in engine should be there and you hsould be ready to rock, tell that officer that hes got it unless he is of lesser experiance, then your stuck taking IC untill your cheif gets there, idk i could be wrong, how would this pan out?"


    Well besides burning the house down and killing anyone inside that plan would work perfectly. Let's see if I remember my IFSTA Essentials about fire growth. Something about fire doubling every minute. So you wait one minute for the next engine to get there, then you wait another minute telling him he is in charge and figuring out who has more seniority. Sooo, the fire has doubled in size and intensity considerably. So instead of an easy room and conents the fire has extended down the hall and flashed out the living room and is now running the walls starting to burn the roof off.

    No, I think as has been stated already usually the best and SAFEST thing to do is to intiate an attack with your crew to put the fire out before it gets bigger and your problem gets bigger.

  22. #72
    MembersZone Subscriber
    JohnVBFD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Norfolk, Va
    Posts
    1,479

    Default

    I look at it this way. If you are only responding with three people, ECC, OIC and a backstep FF and you arrive on scene here are the options:

    OIC and FF enter and put water on the fire....

    OIC establishes IC while ECC and FF stretch a line out and thats basically it.

    OIC establishes IC while ECC establishes water supply and FF poses in front of the fire with a cool looking tool for the local media while getting his new helmet "smoked" to look like a crusty old salt.

    Add the fourth person not much is changing however.

    Enter two firefighters into the structure on one hoseline, that backup firefighter can NOT safely observe the fire conditions around him while properly backing up the nozzleman. Where the head goes the body goes, and if the back up is turning around looking here and there, that poor nozzleman is going to take a beating or the line is going to be almost stationary after the first turn.

    Secondly, and let me throw out there, I perfer a FAST company not 2in/2out. If however you are establishing 2in/2out using the Officer/IC and the ECC, you have NOT established 2in/2out. The IC can not function as a RIT member, nor can an ECC pumping a line, at least not safely.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. ISO Company Personnel
    By FIRE549 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-16-2007, 06:15 PM
  2. The International Association of Crusty Old Jakes Memorial Roll of Honor.
    By DeputyChiefGonzo in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 08-10-2005, 10:47 PM
  3. What a load! FE Nozzles and hose debate
    By imtxff44 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 62
    Last Post: 10-20-2003, 12:38 PM
  4. Houston FD and NIOSH
    By OSUfirepro in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 81
    Last Post: 11-04-2002, 11:37 PM
  5. MY PRAYERS TO OUR FELLOW EMERGENCY WORKERS IN NEW YORK
    By actionj21 in forum Line of Duty: In Memory Of
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 09-21-2001, 04:20 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register