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  1. #41
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    There are a lot of people saying the CO must stay with the crew. You never break your crews up? CO + FF on the nozzle, and 2 FF searching, venting, utilities etc? Every place I've worked journey level firefighters are expected to be able to function with minimal supervision, if we can bump up to act as the captain for the shift we certainly should be able to do so onscene.

    I would prefer to be with my crew but there are times my place is as the IC, one of those considerations is can my crew function without me, if I can't say absolutely yes, then command will be passed to the next unit. Somedays the whole crew could do my job, other days they need me by their side, it all depends on who is working that day.

    BTW this has nothing to do with ICS or NIMS, these are incident management systems, they provide a frame work for commanding an emergency scene. They do not dictate tactics, command styles etc. It happens that a proponent of one off shoot of FIRESCOPE ICS happens to be pushing the command style some of you are complaining about, that also happens to be well distributed in the structural fire community it has nothing to do with NIMS, NIIMS, or FIRESCOPE ICS. You might notice that desciples of that particular brand of IMS are unhappy that NIMS has followed NIIMS / FIRESCOPE ICS rather than the Phoenix IMS model.


  2. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber plisken's Avatar
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    Yes NIMS is all fine and dandy when you hit multipal alarms (40) and need all the command functions, I.E. Hazmat, USAR, Large wild fires, etc. But for your run of the mill house with 3 engines and a truck ( 3 engines in my case ) you do not need to fill all of the structure... IC is also OPS... We get 11 guys thats it... Back up is comming from home on call back and they get to cover the rest of the city..... We need less chiefs and more indians inorder to get the jobs done... The span of control is covered when using the chain of command so that is no issue... First in engine can establish command or pass it, If they keep it the driver can fill in until the next officer arrives and the captain can stay with his pipeman....If we took 2in..2 out consideration we would become basement savers..... We consider all structures occupied and if the quick attack is possible which is most of the time, we go.... Until the government gives us more money for staffing and the lawmakers in madison stop playing games with budgets,, Get back to critical service funding. and support the citys, then we will have to keep doing what we are doing. Command can still be achieved on paper even with the CO iinside with his crew. Its getting hotter I can feel the heat comming......
    Be SAFE!!! Go home when your shift is done and enjoy life.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by plisken View Post
    Yes NIMS is all fine and dandy when you hit multipal alarms (40) and need all the command functions, I.E. Hazmat, USAR, Large wild fires, etc. But for your run of the mill house with 3 engines and a truck ( 3 engines in my case ) you do not need to fill all of the structure... IC is also OPS... We get 11 guys thats it... Back up is comming from home on call back and they get to cover the rest of the city..... We need less chiefs and more indians inorder to get the jobs done... The span of control is covered when using the chain of command so that is no issue... First in engine can establish command or pass it, If they keep it the driver can fill in until the next officer arrives and the captain can stay with his pipeman....If we took 2in..2 out consideration we would become basement savers..... We consider all structures occupied and if the quick attack is possible which is most of the time, we go.... Until the government gives us more money for staffing and the lawmakers in madison stop playing games with budgets,, Get back to critical service funding. and support the citys, then we will have to keep doing what we are doing. Command can still be achieved on paper even with the CO iinside with his crew. Its getting hotter I can feel the heat comming......
    That has nothing to do with my post, was it supposed to or was it just another random jab at NIMS?

  4. #44
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    not a jab at you or NIMS. We are forced to take NIMS up through 200, Officers through 400... We have found NIMS has nothing to do with fireground ops. Yes so seniors feel we must follow NIMS to the letter.. This does not work in small career depts. LAfire feels he needs to stay outside I am fine with that if he feels he has one else comming to take control.... In our case the driver becomes incident command or we pass command. that is what works for us... Just throwing out a new way of doing things when it comes to smaller city departments... As for NIMS I think they have butchered a system that works well and tried to make it into something that the government ageincies can feel good about. I could be wrong! but thats another discussion..
    Be SAFE!!! Go home when your shift is done and enjoy life.
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  5. #45
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDAIC485 View Post
    How does this satisfy two in/two out? The pump-operator cannot be part of the equation.
    He/she is here. Same for a staff officer, an investigator or anyone else with PPE and an SCBA who happens to be on-scene.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 05-09-2007 at 08:24 AM.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    He/she is here. Same for a staff officer, an investigator or anyone else with PPE and an SCBA who happens to be on-scene.
    I think we have had this discussion before Dave. As far as I'm familiar with the OSHA respitory standard only one of the two outside can take on additional roles.

    Person 1- Officer in command
    Person 2- Pump operator

    Both people under the proposed senario have additional duties and thus wouldn't qualify as 2-out as far as OSHA is concerned.

    FTM-PTB

  7. #47
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Here it is set by SOG, and there is very little "wiggle" room. And let me say I DO NOT agree with the way we do it.

    If you have a 4 FF company, the CO is expected to remain outside and establish IC. This takes care of two things. One, you have IC and two, you satisfy 2 in-2 out. While I dont agree with it, I can live with it.

    What I cannot live with is if you have 3 on the rig, the CO goes in on the line, but is still expected to establish IC. Sorry, but that goes against everything I learned when I was going to company officer school. To be the IC, you need to be outside in a position to monitor conditions and make assignments as dictated by the situation.
    Dave,

    Maybe I am just not understanding, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.
    I don't see how you are advocating that the IC has to stay outside in order to be "effective" in scenario 2 and then not agree with it in scenario 1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    He/she is here. Same for a staff officer, an investigator or anyone else with PPE and an SCBA who happens to be on-scene.
    C'mon Dave. I think the entire 2 in/ 2 out policy is a big joke anyway, but your Drivers really routinely standing around the pump panel in an SCBA?? I guess the IC's are Chiefin' in airpacks as well.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 05-09-2007 at 12:00 PM.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  8. #48
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonSurfinCaFF View Post
    There are a lot of people saying the CO must stay with the crew. You never break your crews up? CO + FF on the nozzle, and 2 FF searching, venting, utilities etc? Every place I've worked journey level firefighters are expected to be able to function with minimal supervision, if we can bump up to act as the captain for the shift we certainly should be able to do so onscene.
    NoSurfin,

    We routinely split up truck companies, but engine companies for the most part stay together. I think the bigger premise of the question however is that as a first in engine officer I am going to participate in the tactics and not sit outside and point.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 05-09-2007 at 12:19 PM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  9. #49
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    Remember Florida is NOT an OSHA state, so the Federal OSH Act does not apply to State or Municipal employees.

    What they have done, for firefighters, is under the State Fire Marshal's office established a Firefighter Safety & Health unit that may adopt any or allFedOSHA regulations.

    The critical difference is Florida did not become a State-plan OSHA that would require they adopt at least the minimum standards called for by FedOSHA. By remaining outside of OSHA, they have the flexibility to pick-and-choose among the regulations. Most obviously, this is in Florida's ability to waive the 2in/2out rule annually for departments that the State Fire Marshal's office determine can't afford to meet it. That's not an option under in states with a State-plan OSHA.

    http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Sta tute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0633/SEC821.HTM&Title=->2005->Ch0633->Section%20821#0633.821

    Is there Firefighter Safety & Health law, and it explicitly allows both of the 2out to be assigned other roles, unlike the Federal rule.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    NoSurfin,

    We routinely split up, but engine companies for the most part stay together. I think the bigger premise of the question however is that as a first in engine officer I am going to participate in the tactics and not sit outside and point.
    This is something I never understood. Why when the company officer arrives does he send his men into battle without supervision on the handline. The nozzle team will be the closest to the fire and in the most dangerous of circumstances and to not have an officer inside evaulating the situation and progress (if any) is beyond foolish.

    Yet presumably another company lets say a Ladder Co. (or company acting in the capacity of a Ladder) and this Engine Co. officer is to give orders to another company officer? Does the 2nd Arriving officer not know dept procedures? Is he incapable of coordinating his companies efforts with the Engine officer? Why does he become subserviant to the first arriving officer? Since when is an Engine officer going to give commands to a Ladder Co. officer as to what he and his men are to do?

    How is an Engine officer to update the chief as to the conditions and progress upon the Chiefs arrival if he is in the street?

    FTM-PTB

  11. #51
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    To many things can happen that are not visable from the inside. Condition changes visable only from the outside may be missed. Many radio messages can be missed while working inside. Information that civilains or property owners may have about contents, occupancy or structural conditions will not reach the firefighters. My assumption is that your jumpseat firefighters are fully trained and competent to stretch the line and make firefighting decisions. I see no need for an officer to supervise them if they have been trained and understand the basic departments firefighting objectives.
    LA,

    At fires structure fires, do you think more firefighter burn injuries and deaths occur inside or outside the building?

    So what about the conditions on the inside that you will miss from the outside? What about the missed radio messages you speak of when you are outside and your crew is inside? If everyone is competent, like you say and good SOP's are in place, everyone will be much safer with extra hands and experience on the inside looking over things with the complete knowledge of interior conditions than with a competent guy with years of experience guessing what is going on with the younger guys inside.

    At a routine room and contents fire, what is the pressing outside IC activities? Getting an ETA on the power company or updating the Alarm Office of the incident status? Who cares? Make sure the fire goes out and worry letting people hear you "command" the incident on the radio later.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  12. #52
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    Like some the aggressive firefighters have said, the company officer's place is with his company.

    Here we do something called "fast attack" which means the company officer is going with his guys to fight the fire and the next arriving officer assumes the IC position.

    Unless you are lame-a** officer, you want to be the first one there, especially in your own district.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    How is an Engine officer to update the chief as to the conditions and progress upon the Chiefs arrival if he is in the street?
    Well, someone's gotta be on the street since the Chief is holed up in a SUV half a block away

  14. #54
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    This is something I never understood. Why when the company officer arrives does he send his men into battle without supervision on the handline. The nozzle team will be the closest to the fire and in the most dangerous of circumstances and to not have an officer inside evaulating the situation and progress (if any) is beyond foolish.

    Yet presumably another company lets say a Ladder Co. (or company acting in the capacity of a Ladder) and this Engine Co. officer is to give orders to another company officer? Does the 2nd Arriving officer not know dept procedures? Is he incapable of coordinating his companies efforts with the Engine officer? Why does he become subserviant to the first arriving officer? Since when is an Engine officer going to give commands to a Ladder Co. officer as to what he and his men are to do?

    How is an Engine officer to update the chief as to the conditions and progress upon the Chiefs arrival if he is in the street?

    FTM-PTB
    Fred,

    You lost me a little. My original reply to this thread on page 1:
    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You'll find me inside with my company.
    In the post above, I forgot to type in truck companies. It was suppose to say that we routinely split truck companies, but engine companies for the most part stay together.

    Here, officers do go with their crew. When truck companies split, the officer teams up with a guy to go inside, the other 2 take care of outside duties and then meet back up with the other guys inside.


    As far as the rest goes, the first in officer just has command because he got their first. Engine officers are not perceived as being higher than truck officers or vice versa. I guess here it is more like an accountability thing. For example, a small room and contents job that arrive 1st to mandates that the 2nd engine lay a supply line per SOP. As IC, I could stop that task, but be responsible for it. Or I could call for extra equipment as IC, but not as an on scene engine officer arriving 2nd or 3rd due.

    Truck work kinda goes the same way. They operate under their own officer and SOP's, but can be given a task by an engine officer that is IC the same way as if the IC were a Chief. Any task given would be mandated by SOP's any way.

    Also keep in mind that here, this generally only lasts about 1-3 minutes before a Chief arrives on the scene and all companies will most likely be operating by SOP's anyway.

    Truth be told, the initial arriving IC is just the guy they're gonna nail if you have a rekindle!!

    And on most small, regular incidents, we transfer command over the radio.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 05-09-2007 at 12:40 PM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by plisken View Post
    not a jab at you or NIMS. We are forced to take NIMS up through 200, Officers through 400... We have found NIMS has nothing to do with fireground ops. Yes so seniors feel we must follow NIMS to the letter.. This does not work in small career depts. LAfire feels he needs to stay outside I am fine with that if he feels he has one else comming to take control.... In our case the driver becomes incident command or we pass command. that is what works for us... Just throwing out a new way of doing things when it comes to smaller city departments... As for NIMS I think they have butchered a system that works well and tried to make it into something that the government ageincies can feel good about. I could be wrong! but thats another discussion..

    Ok, it looked like you were taking what I said and intentionally saying ICS was what I just said was not really a part of ICS.

    I see a lot of these large incident, vests, everybody has a cool title posts.

    I know in many areas this is what ICS has come to be, but as someone who has worked under ICS for going on 15 years, that is not really what ICS is about. I've seen the vests but I rarely see them used, they are not neccessary in most cases, even the large incident management teams don't use them, they just have name tags with thier position (I think that is just a courtesy to help people avoid unknowingly walking up to the IC and saying how F'd up the IC is ) .

    ICS works fine on small fires, like you said you have an IC and an attack group, investigation group what ever depending on your incident, sometime that group is just known as engine 1 (or what ever), shocking I know

    I have seen these departments you speak of, that will have a simple medical and they have an IC, OPS, Logistics (the guy filling out the PCR), band aid group (the guy putting on the band aid), supply unit leader (the guy getting stuff out of the EMS bag), comm unit (the guy calling the kid with the skinned knee's mother), transport group (the mother).

    This is not actually in ICS and neither is the decision to go in with your crew or stay outside and assume command. These are mutations being adopted by others. If you incident has 17 firefighters on scene and you are handing out 17 vests, you have a problem. For one thing lose the vests, for another at most you only need a position for each Chief and Company officer, maybe. To many people are trying to make ICS way too complicated.


    Memphis I guess that is a benefit of belonging to a large department. I've only worked for small departments with well staffed engines, but no trucks so the engines have to do everything. Most of the time one of the company officers has to step up to Command because their is no chief arriving onscene, or at least not anytime soon (hour +). Since these departments have been Feds either working a 40 hour week or a 2 platoon system if 24 hour coverage everybody has to be capable of bumping up to the next level (FF-> engineer, engineer-> captain, captain -> BC) because they will do so on a regular basis. It is common for one CO to take command and the other to take over interior supervision (whether 1st in or 2nd in takes command depends on the initial conditions).

    Guess its just a little different organization from a well staffed 3 platoon system.

  16. #56
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    NFA produces a series of training simulators that address this same scenario.

    They are available online or on CD. In each scenario, the student takes the battallion chief role. Listen closely to how the Officer of the first arriving officer on scene addresses this issue on the simulations sometimes.

    He says something like this "Dispatch, Engine 75, Smoke and flames coming from the basement window on the AB corner of a single story home. Initiating interior attack, passing command to the next arriving officer"

    Not saying its right or wrong, but it is a technique that the NFA includes in some of their scenarios.

  17. #57
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Dave,

    Maybe I am just not understanding, but this makes absolutely no sense to me.
    I don't see how you are advocating that the IC has to stay outside in order to be "effective" in scenario 2 and then not agree with it in scenario 1.




    C'mon Dave. I think the entire 2 in/ 2 out policy is a big joke anyway, but your Drivers really routinely standing around the pump panel in an SCBA?? I guess the IC's are Chiefin' in airpacks as well.

    No, your not understanding.

    What I am saying is if your the IC, you need to be outside. You cant call tactics (not good ones anyway) from inside on a hoseline. What I disagree with in scenario 1 is our SOG says if I, as a CO, have a full crew (4) I should stay outside. I think the CO should be in on the line with the rest of his crew. While I disagree with it, I CAN live with it (not that I have a choice). What I will not do as a CO is be IC while interior when we only have 3 on the rig (scenario 2).


    As for the whole 2 in-2 out Im not sure I think its a joke. What I do think is it doesnt (or shouldnt) apply to situations like mine (and yours) were we have an on-duty staff, plenty of resources and the next in rig(s) are close behind. Now, out in Mayberry, with only a driver on the one and only engine shows up and the next due is coming from the next town, sure. Maybe you should wait for some help. Not getting into the "what if you have a rescue" thing, just talking about 2 in- 2 out. And no, that wasnt a slam on the volunteers.

    And no, our drivers do not wear SCBA while pumping. But its in a compartment next to the pump panel, and it only takes 30 seconds to put it on. Like another poster mentioned, Fla is not an OSHA state, so we dont have to follow 2 in- 2 out "to the letter". We adopted and modified it as we saw fit, to improve the safety of our firefighters while meeting the "reality" of our particular situation (minimum manning of 3 FF on a rig, resources, etc).
    Last edited by Dave1983; 05-10-2007 at 11:10 AM.
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  18. #58
    Forum Member Squad1LT's Avatar
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    Dave, you said:
    "You cant call tactics (not good ones anyway) from inside on a hoseline"

    Some of the best BC's that I have are the ones that don't say alot on the radio. If you have officers and ffs that know their jobs you shouldn't have to be yelling orders that everyone should already be doing. The second engine should be getting you water, the first truck should be venting the room or the roof if needed. The squad should be searching etc... So there really isnt a whole lot of tactics you should be needing to give on the hoseline. Letting the truck crews know that you need ventilation, or that the fire is in the walls, or that you have victims are some things you need to communicate. But then you wouldn't know about those being outside. Your department's past practice, experience, SOP, training, etc should call alot of the tactics but these are handled before the alarm goes off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad1LT View Post
    Dave, you said:
    "You cant call tactics (not good ones anyway) from inside on a hoseline"

    Some of the best BC's that I have are the ones that don't say alot on the radio. If you have officers and ffs that know their jobs you shouldn't have to be yelling orders that everyone should already be doing. The second engine should be getting you water, the first truck should be venting the room or the roof if needed. The squad should be searching etc... So there really isnt a whole lot of tactics you should be needing to give on the hoseline. Letting the truck crews know that you need ventilation, or that the fire is in the walls, or that you have victims are some things you need to communicate. But then you wouldn't know about those being outside. Your department's past practice, experience, SOP, training, etc should call alot of the tactics but these are handled before the alarm goes off.

    I agree, but I never said the IC has to say a lot, or yell orders into a radio. All I said was that IMHO, you cant oversee COMPLETE fireground operations. which around here is an ICs job, from inside. Maybe tactics was a poor choice of words.

    And yes,the inside crew is in the best position to report a need for ventilation, ask for ceilings to be pulled, ask for a back-up line or what have you. But you cant see fire comming through a roof, or that its on the floor above you, or that the smoke has changed color or is now pushing, or that you have fire impingment on an exposer, or the roof is sagging or a wall is starting to lean, from inside. Thats what the outside IC is for.
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    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    LA...

    Just because in YOUR system you keep one of the first 4 arriving firefighters outside as command doea not make it right or even common practice. BOTH, reread that please, BOTH, of the FD's I am on use the standard, accepted, Brunacini Command practice of the first officer being an active command and being involved in actual firefighting actvities. It is also common practice on BOTH of my FD's that the company officer be with his firefighters when they are inside working. The exception would be if a later arriving company officer would assume command and establish the command post.

    I much prefer the system we use over you automatic taking of that first officer OR senoir firefighter out of the combat role and making him remain outside away from the firefighters he is supposed to supervise and keep safe while they work.

    Frankly every time you post I am more glad than ever that you are almost half a country away from me. Your bizarre ramblings on safety, yet allowing CHILDREN to fight fire, then this command thing....WOW!

    But anyways, do have a nice day.

    FyredUp

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