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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brammer View Post
    I have a question to ask. First, lets assume the following condition: a combination FD with 1st out engine company staffed with four personnel and a chief officer arriving on scene four to five minutes later. Fire conditions will require offensive operations. So, the question is: you as a company officer would estabish command and remain outside and assigns two presonnel (fiefighter 1 and 2) to conduct interior fire attack or would you assume interior operations role with FF1 and pass command to the arriving chief?
    So, getting back to the original question... that depends. I do like to stay with my crew whenever possible. The key to the above question is; what other resources are arriving before the chief, and what are the SOPs for those units. If the answer is nothing, then stay with the crew. If another five units are arriving before the chief then someone is going to have to take command. Again, I prefer to stay with my crew, but if I know the chief is a ways out I have no problem taking command. Usually, my next in engine is about 30 sec to 1 min behind me. I simply take command and have the second in officer take his crew and back up mine so that I have supervision for both crews. One officer can supervise 4 firefighters and 2 lines, no? Then I call that officer "Fire Attack" so I comply with NIMS.


  2. #62
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Default to answer the original question

    I would do neither.

    I would establish command as the first arriving engine officer and assume a combat role and participate in the appropriate tactic.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  3. #63
    Forum Member FDAIC485's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I would do neither.

    I would establish command as the first arriving engine officer and assume a combat role and participate in the appropriate tactic.
    This makes far too much sense to me. I forgot where I was for a second.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  4. #64
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    Fryed ...

    Every thread we seem to butte heads.

    I'll repeat myself. The officer or senior man on the truck is not assigned to that piece of apparatus or the firefighters on it. They are simply riding to the fire on it. Since the majority of our manpower, including initial manpower, arrives by POV, assignments are made at the staging area and are not, except in rare cases, given to incoming apparatus except tyo lay hose, make hydrants, etc. Officers and senior men are taken off apparatus and assigned teams and tasks at staging. So for example, if an incoming officer on a piece may have a particuliar speciality, he may be assigned a crew from staging who mirror his skills and assigned that task. The remaining manpower on that truck will either be sent to staging to become part of the manpower pool or given another senior man as a team leader and assigned a task. The only exception to this is the initial attack piece, who will often stay together, with the exception of the officer, if he is the first officer on scene, he will stay outside as command. If the manpower remaining happens to contain another senior man, besides the senior man or officer who was pulled off, they may work as a crew with that second senior man or officer assigned as team leader.

    I am really trying to figure out what is so wrong with giving your backstep firefighters reponsibility in routine fire attack operations if they are trained for the tasks at hand. Giving them this responsibility allows them to grow professionally. I have no problem with sending 2 of our trained, experienced personel inside during initial attack without an officer. They see the same things that officer or senior firefighter will see, and if they are trained and understand department SOPs and tactics, they should make sound decisions.

    People use the military analogy quite a bit. Are you telling me that when a unit leader tells 2-3 men to take the backside of a building or recon a target, an officer is one of those 2-3 men. Military units routinly assign combat tasks to grunts, so what is so different about this scenerio?

    Memphis..

    Here initial command has many decisons to make. Initial manpower varies greatly so the priorties at a fire this morning will be different if the same fire happens tonight. In what order the apparatus responds is quite variable. Water supply, even on the same road can vary from a 1000 gpm hydrant to no hydrants within 2 miles. The reality is we do not have to consistancy of manpower, apparatus, water supply ans support resources that you enjoy in the city. Every fire brings completly different situations with completely different decisions that go well beyond the ETA of the power company. Again, please explain to me why 2 expereinced jumpseat firefighters need an officer to supervise initial fire attack.

  5. #65
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    Memphis,

    I wasn't necessarily refering to your comments.

    FTM-PTB

  6. #66
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fryed ...



    People use the military analogy quite a bit. Are you telling me that when a unit leader tells 2-3 men to take the backside of a building or recon a target, an officer is one of those 2-3 men. Military units routinly assign combat tasks to grunts, so what is so different about this scenerio?

    Actually...yes. It depends on what the mission is, type of unit, and leadership style that officer possesses. A group of 4 people is a Fire Team, and is led by a Corporal. There are 3 fire teams per squad, which is led by a Sgt. The fire company concept is basically that. 1 Engine Co is 3-6 members...and led by a person with a title of Lt or Cpt.....you can substitute Cpl or Sgt for those titles....and you can BET you butt that the Cpl or Sgt will be with thier team or squad making recce. Just as the Capt or Lt should be on either the attack.
    IACOJ Member

  7. #67
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Memphis..

    Here initial command has many decisons to make. Initial manpower varies greatly so the priorties at a fire this morning will be different if the same fire happens tonight. In what order the apparatus responds is quite variable. Water supply, even on the same road can vary from a 1000 gpm hydrant to no hydrants within 2 miles. The reality is we do not have to consistancy of manpower, apparatus, water supply ans support resources that you enjoy in the city. Every fire brings completly different situations with completely different decisions that go well beyond the ETA of the power company. Again, please explain to me why 2 expereinced jumpseat firefighters need an officer to supervise initial fire attack.
    LA,

    I sincerely understand the picture you are painting. I have vollied in departments that were exactly the same way.

    I guess what I don't understand is if you have so much faith and trust in your firefighters to go interior by themselves without anyone watching their back, why do you not give them enough credit to determine how to establish a water supply without someone in the yard pointing to the hydrant down the street??

    To answer your question, it is not that I do not have faith or trust the guys on my company. Truth be told, they are as good as me or better, but our tasks are different. As line holding firefighters, they are tasked with putting the fire out by whatever means I tell them. They do not pull the line they want, they stretch the line I call for. They are then hands on, actively participating in the extinguishment of the fire from start to finish.

    On tthis point we agree. They cannot be participating and visualizing everything that is going on around them. Where we disagree is that you feep your proper place is in the yard, I feel mine is right there with them. I participate in the tactic only up to the point that we are flowing water unless (rarely) it is just the nozzleman and myself. We almost always have at least one other guy with us immediately. At any rate, I will help make the lay, especially if it is very long, but once we get ready to go in, I am hands off. I am tasked with nothing other than paying attentioin to what is going on around the advancing crew. I am right there with them, maybe a little to the left or right, maybe a step ahead or behind, cheerleading for lack of a better term, and paying attention to surrounding conditions because they are paying attention to one thing - advancing the line and putting the fire out until it is either extinguished or I tell them to quit.

    I will also give you credit on this, while advancing with the crew I am not going to worry a whole lot about who is arriving next in what vehicle, but I trust those people to show up and support the operation.

    Hopefully you can acknowledge that you as an IC cannot protect or advise that advancing engine company. They could be going down a hall leading to 3 or 4 rooms of fire and you wouldn't see the first wisp of orange from the front yard. How can you honestly say that that could be the best place for your senior guy?? Wait, I guess you could sporadically get on the radio and say, "Check that door for heat Tim?"
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  8. #68
    Forum Member hoole17's Avatar
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    well im a newbie here but all of you are saying your next-in engine is about 30 seconds to one min MAX behind you...there are things you can do; get a FULL SIZE UP- paint a picture of the scene
    by time you have a good size up taken your next in engine should be there and you hsould be ready to rock, tell that officer that hes got it unless he is of lesser experiance, then your stuck taking IC untill your cheif gets there, idk i could be wrong, how would this pan out?
    I reject your reality and substitute my own

  9. #69
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    Hi guys, new to forum but here is my view- here in queensland (australia) the full time crews run with four (1 officer, 3 ff's). CO of first arriving pump takes control, does size up requests backup (if needed) and becomes incident commander. The 2 ff's in the rear are the BA team and they mount the fire attack. The driver runs the pump. The officer won't go in unless there is a major problem (e.g- collapse) when he enters with the driver as a rescue team. (2 in, 2 out.).
    Alex

  10. #70
    Forum Member FDAIC485's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    LA,

    I sincerely understand the picture you are painting. I have vollied in departments that were exactly the same way.

    I guess what I don't understand is if you have so much faith and trust in your firefighters to go interior by themselves without anyone watching their back, why do you not give them enough credit to determine how to establish a water supply without someone in the yard pointing to the hydrant down the street??

    To answer your question, it is not that I do not have faith or trust the guys on my company. Truth be told, they are as good as me or better, but our tasks are different. As line holding firefighters, they are tasked with putting the fire out by whatever means I tell them. They do not pull the line they want, they stretch the line I call for. They are then hands on, actively participating in the extinguishment of the fire from start to finish.

    On tthis point we agree. They cannot be participating and visualizing everything that is going on around them. Where we disagree is that you feep your proper place is in the yard, I feel mine is right there with them. I participate in the tactic only up to the point that we are flowing water unless (rarely) it is just the nozzleman and myself. We almost always have at least one other guy with us immediately. At any rate, I will help make the lay, especially if it is very long, but once we get ready to go in, I am hands off. I am tasked with nothing other than paying attentioin to what is going on around the advancing crew. I am right there with them, maybe a little to the left or right, maybe a step ahead or behind, cheerleading for lack of a better term, and paying attention to surrounding conditions because they are paying attention to one thing - advancing the line and putting the fire out until it is either extinguished or I tell them to quit.

    I will also give you credit on this, while advancing with the crew I am not going to worry a whole lot about who is arriving next in what vehicle, but I trust those people to show up and support the operation.

    Hopefully you can acknowledge that you as an IC cannot protect or advise that advancing engine company. They could be going down a hall leading to 3 or 4 rooms of fire and you wouldn't see the first wisp of orange from the front yard. How can you honestly say that that could be the best place for your senior guy?? Wait, I guess you could sporadically get on the radio and say, "Check that door for heat Tim?"

    You hit the key factor...Trust. As for your actions as a CO, it appears that we learned from the same playbook.

    Note:The man who writes my yearly evaluation also likes my MO and my firefighters haven't asked for a transfer. LOL.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  11. #71
    Forum Member Squad1LT's Avatar
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    "well im a newbie here but all of you are saying your next-in engine is about 30 seconds to one min MAX behind you...there are things you can do; get a FULL SIZE UP- paint a picture of the scene
    by time you have a good size up taken your next in engine should be there and you hsould be ready to rock, tell that officer that hes got it unless he is of lesser experiance, then your stuck taking IC untill your cheif gets there, idk i could be wrong, how would this pan out?"


    Well besides burning the house down and killing anyone inside that plan would work perfectly. Let's see if I remember my IFSTA Essentials about fire growth. Something about fire doubling every minute. So you wait one minute for the next engine to get there, then you wait another minute telling him he is in charge and figuring out who has more seniority. Sooo, the fire has doubled in size and intensity considerably. So instead of an easy room and conents the fire has extended down the hall and flashed out the living room and is now running the walls starting to burn the roof off.

    No, I think as has been stated already usually the best and SAFEST thing to do is to intiate an attack with your crew to put the fire out before it gets bigger and your problem gets bigger.

  12. #72
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    I look at it this way. If you are only responding with three people, ECC, OIC and a backstep FF and you arrive on scene here are the options:

    OIC and FF enter and put water on the fire....

    OIC establishes IC while ECC and FF stretch a line out and thats basically it.

    OIC establishes IC while ECC establishes water supply and FF poses in front of the fire with a cool looking tool for the local media while getting his new helmet "smoked" to look like a crusty old salt.

    Add the fourth person not much is changing however.

    Enter two firefighters into the structure on one hoseline, that backup firefighter can NOT safely observe the fire conditions around him while properly backing up the nozzleman. Where the head goes the body goes, and if the back up is turning around looking here and there, that poor nozzleman is going to take a beating or the line is going to be almost stationary after the first turn.

    Secondly, and let me throw out there, I perfer a FAST company not 2in/2out. If however you are establishing 2in/2out using the Officer/IC and the ECC, you have NOT established 2in/2out. The IC can not function as a RIT member, nor can an ECC pumping a line, at least not safely.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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