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    Question Dual Pumping Operations -outdated?

    In our Driver / Operator Training program, we continue to cover Dual Pumping Operations. Two Engines working from a single Strong hydrant. I'm being led in the direction this is an out dated proceedure and should be deleted from the program. Any thoughts ?

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    Nothing is outdated if it continues to be effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by training6604 View Post
    In our Driver / Operator Training program, we continue to cover Dual Pumping Operations. Two Engines working from a single Strong hydrant. I'm being led in the direction this is an out dated proceedure and should be deleted from the program. Any thoughts ?
    Only someone familiar with your district can tell you. We have good pumps and lousy hydrants, so I can't imagine that we would ever do it. But you may well be in a different position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by training6604 View Post
    In our Driver / Operator Training program, we continue to cover Dual Pumping Operations. Two Engines working from a single Strong hydrant. I'm being led in the direction this is an out dated proceedure and should be deleted from the program. Any thoughts ?
    Dual pumping is more than hooking two engines to a single hydrant. Dual pumping is when you have an engine on a plug and then connect another engine up to the first, intake to intake. The second pumper receives residual water from the pump of the 1st one.

    Having said that, no I have never done, seen it, or even heard of it being done outside of a training evolution. Its more of a nice to know than a need to know.
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    I don't consider it outdated at all. Depending on the department, I can see several scenerios where dual pumping can be worked. We've had several situations at my career department where we should have dual pumped and didn't. Instead they made a long lay to a lesser hydrant.

    Even in a rural situation, I could see it's benefit if you're relay pumping to an attack apparatus and could dual pump with another attack apparatus. In my mind, drivers need to know a number of things that they may use rarely, but need the information in case the day comes that they need that knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I don't consider it outdated at all. Depending on the department, I can see several scenerios where dual pumping can be worked. We've had several situations at my career department where we should have dual pumped and didn't. Instead they made a long lay to a lesser hydrant.

    Even in a rural situation, I could see it's benefit if you're relay pumping to an attack apparatus and could dual pump with another attack apparatus. In my mind, drivers need to know a number of things that they may use rarely, but need the information in case the day comes that they need that knowledge.
    Thanks for the replys
    I agree. Its my intention to continue the training.
    To be effective when it counts , the operator has be aware of the capabilities and limitations of the apparatus and water supply system. Its just one of the many task you may never be called to perform or it could be the one that really makes a difference.

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    Is there a .1 percent chance of you using it? Then, you probably need to know how because we all know how murphy's law works.

    We dont carry hard suction so we cant draft but we run mutual aid with a few departments who do carry hard suction and if the crap hits the fan... then I need to know how to draft because it HAS come up.

    So, there is always a chance it could happen. In a wildland fire, anything can happen, no matter how outrageous

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    Who needs to double pump when you have a street that looks like THIS:


    We have hydrants in our area that could support two 1500 GPM pumpers, and still be at 30 PSI residual.... so why go find another hydrant? I think it still should be taught.
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    I agree, it should still be taught if you have the possibility of needing it one day.

    Especially given the proliferation of 5" and 6" LDH for long lays of supply line. A single pumper in the 1050 to 1250 gpm range will not flow the capacity of that hose (or even close for that matter). Dual pumpers however, will allow you to flow much closer to the full capacity of that hose, over very long lays, when your source is adequate.

    We don't all have the luxury of 1500-2000+ gpm engines, but that doesn't mean we can't get 3 or 4 of the smaller ones through mutual aid. Two pumpers on the hydrant or draft can easily supply two or more pumpers on the scene through one large supply line.
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    Out here it's called relay pumping. It's very effective if you have multiple engine and ladder truck operations at the recieving end. 5" hose can only carry so much water...
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    Or if you have hills, you might have a good hydrant with 100 psi but a 200 foot rise will result in no water at the pump even assuming frictionless hose. Good place to park a pumper at the hydrant and one at the structure. Wouldn't take that much of a hill if you had a long lay.

    Assuming you actually mean an engine at the hydrant and one at the fire. Not really sure why you would ever park two pumpers at 1 hydrant unless it was the only one in town. Ah, just re-read Mcalwells reply, I guess if you had a really good hydrant that might be within reason.
    Last edited by NonSurfinCaFF; 05-07-2007 at 08:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Out here it's called relay pumping. It's very effective if you have multiple engine and ladder truck operations at the recieving end. 5" hose can only carry so much water...
    actually dual pumping and relay pumping are seperate things. dual pumping is per ifsta is using a strong hydrant to supply two pumpers intake to intake. the second pumper recieves excess water supply from the first pumper.

    Relay pumping per ifsta is using two or more pumpers to move water over a long distance by operating them in series. Water discharged from one pumper flows through the hoses to the inlet of the next pumper and so on.
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    It's not a hard thing to do.

    Place an engine on the plug. Move water.

    Ready the second piece- connect a hard sleeve to the second piece, then maneuver it in place adjacent to the first piece which is on the hydrant already moving the water. Leave just enough slack in the hard sleeve to be able to move it onto the steamer of the first piece.

    Now gate down the hydrant until you have just a little over zero left on the intake gauge of the first piece. NEVER go to or below zero! When you are there, take off the opposite side steamer cap on the first piece, and put the hard sleeve on (which is already connected to the second piece). When you have it all secure, open the plug back up, and voila! Now flow water with the second piece.

    Takes practice, and the 2 drivers need to communicate, but it's really not as hard as folks think!
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 05-07-2007 at 10:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Out here it's called relay pumping. It's very effective if you have multiple engine and ladder truck operations at the recieving end. 5" hose can only carry so much water...
    Relay pumping is where you have a more than one pumper connected in series. From what I ma reading here dual pumping occurs when two (and I guess you could use more) pumpers are connected at the same hydrant pumping in parallel. Never heard of it and we never use it. Our pumpers are 1500 GPM units. Most of the hydrants we have couldn't supply enough water to run one pumper, hooking up 2 would be a waste. Then again, we rarely use hydrants anyway. That is the problem with these schools, They will teach you stuff that you will never use, or you might use 10 years from now. And 10 years from now you will have forgotten all about it.

    Certifications and credentials are nice, but unless there is a recertification process it really doesn't mean much. Everyone wants to think that if you have been through and passed FF1 and FF2 that you can instantly go anywhere in the country and do the job. I guess the actual training needs to be geared more towards the local area and how things work in that area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    That is the problem with these schools, They will teach you stuff that you will never use, or you might use 10 years from now. And 10 years from now you will have forgotten all about it.

    Certifications and credentials are nice, but unless there is a recertification process it really doesn't mean much. Everyone wants to think that if you have been through and passed FF1 and FF2 that you can instantly go anywhere in the country and do the job. I guess the actual training needs to be geared more towards the local area and how things work in that area.
    If you have pride in your job you tend to keep up on the things that you dont do much. In my dept we have CBT's (continues based training) we mainly focus this training on things we dont do very often or ever so that when we do need it we will be proficient at it.
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    I have Just completed my 1002's, and tandem(duel) pumping is still taught. Although new advances have changed it a bit. Assuming you have inlet gates on your steamer ports, instead of using hard suction and gating back your hydrant to try to make the connection, put a short pony lenght of 5 inch high vol from inlet gate to inlet gate and open things up. Not as many risks as trying to gate back your hydrant any only minimally more friction loss than with the hard suction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireslayer1237 View Post
    If you have pride in your job you tend to keep up on the things that you dont do much. In my dept we have CBT's (continues based training) we mainly focus this training on things we dont do very often or ever so that when we do need it we will be proficient at it.
    We tend to train and get proficient in the things we actually do and need. Something that may be of use once in 50 years is of no use to us and a waste of valuable time. We have no high rises, so there is no need to even train on them.

    We are a volunteer organization and we seem t osee a large turn over of people. It's more about the politics than anything else. Too many guys don't get their way or things don't go the way they would like and the quit. I also think some get burned out. We train on things like relay pumping, setting up a water source, and using hydrants. Yes we do hydrants even though we only have them in about 5% of the district. And usually, what happens is the group as a whole is so used to setting up a portable pond and water shuttle that we rarely use the hydrants.

    I'm pretty much sure there were a whole bunch of things that were taught in the course that evetnually got filed away as useless information. Some of it was that the ladder company comes in and they do the search and rescue. They are followed by the engine company that does the attack. And they are followed by something else. We don't have ladder companies or engine companies or any of that stuff. It was garbage you had to learn and then threw it away as useless knowledge. Sorry but that is the reality of the situation.

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    We don't have these "hydrant" things you speak of around here. We have to go out of town to play with those. So I have to ask the million dollar question here.

    WHY?

    Wouldn't it be more effective to just run two supply lines off the hydrant, one for each truck?
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    We use dual pumping here on a regular basis. Dual pumping is NOT relay pumping and it requires no hard suction hose anywhere in the evolution. It is very simple to do and only requires 2 engines and 1 good hydrant...or 1 okay hydrant and 2 engines flowing less than capacity each.

    Here is one common example of how we use it...keep in mind we are in a metro-urban area with a good water system:

    Engine 1 stops in front of house on fire, catches their own plug, and pulls off 2 preconnects to attack the fire.

    Engine 2 pulls up...they did NOT catch a plug, they pull a couple of their own preconnects off but do NOT have an easily accessible plug. Engine 1 isn't using all the water that is available from their hydrant.

    Engine 2 can hook a short sleeve of 5" (not hard suction) from their intake to Engine 1's unused intake. The reason it has to be on the intake and not the discharge of E-1 is simple...Engine 2 does not want any additional pressure from Engine 1...(remember, E-1 is pumping attack lines, we don't want 150 psi pushing water to E-2 through 15' of 5" hose) If we attached to E-1's discharge we would get all the pump pressure (unless we gated down)...but why gate down since you can attach to the intake and avoid the risk of water hammer altogether.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    We don't have these "hydrant" things you speak of around here. We have to go out of town to play with those. So I have to ask the million dollar question here.

    WHY?

    Wouldn't it be more effective to just run two supply lines off the hydrant, one for each truck?
    One situation I've seen we should have used it where I work is a defensive fire on a three-story (and basement) balloon frame structure. Hydrants on both ends of the block, but one would require cutting off a major highway. The other hydrant available was on the other back side of the structure and was being used by another engine. Engine layed into the truck, which was pumping four attack lines. We subsequently starting pumping the stick (which is always taught as a no-no to pump attack lines and stick).

    What we could/should have done was dual-pumped that hydrant (8" main, plenty of water and pressure) and let the truck pump the stick and the engine pump the attack lines or another master stream. The alternative would have been to lay dual 3's off that hydrant (after shutting it completely down) to one or the other for about 250'. Dual pumping would have let us maintain the flow from the truck and hooked up the engine to it.

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    In Jersey, dual pumping is referred to as tandem pumping. It was used much more prior to LDH but we still train on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by decou151 View Post
    In Jersey, dual pumping is referred to as tandem pumping. It was used much more prior to LDH but we still train on it.
    That's kind of funny as it brings back a recent debate I was involved with. When we were writing the portion of our driver's academy with all of the relay, tandem, and dual pumping information, we got into a bit of a heated discussion. Several of us had different ideas on what each one was. When we got out the IFSTA manual, we found out we were all wrong in some manner.

    Not saying NJ can't do it their own way, but what we learned (IFSTA-wise, at least) was relay is pumping water long distances using mulitple engines to boost the pressure. Dual was hooking intake-to-intake to maximize the water from a single source. Tandem is one truck pumping into another to boost pressure, basically creating a two-stage pump out of two single stage pumps.

    Given the right circumstances, there's a use for any of the three techniques (no matter what you want to call them).

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    We don't have these "hydrant" things you speak of around here. We have to go out of town to play with those. So I have to ask the million dollar question here.

    WHY?

    Wouldn't it be more effective to just run two supply lines off the hydrant, one for each truck?

    Short Answer - No.

    Longer Answer - Although we don't remotely claim to have invented Tandem Pumping here, we have used it since the 1920's. Our operation starts with the first Engine pulling up to a good Hydrant, and connecting their SOFT Suction Sleeve to the Steamer outlet on the Hydrant. They hook up, turn the water on, and charge the lines laid down the street to the Fire by other Engines. When the First Engine runs out of Discharges, but still has a good residual pressure, a second engine is placed in position to attach their sleeve to the large intake on the First Engine. When everyone is ready, a FF slowly starts shutting down the hydrant. When the residual approaches zero, the Cap is taken off the first Engine's intake and the second Engine's sleeve is attached. Then the Hydrant is opened up full again. The second Engine can then attach and charge additional supply lines to Engines on the Fireground.

    Coupla points - We have a lot of Hydrants that would be unheard of in many communities. One that we use for training has at least a 3,000 gpm flow. Our Hydrants are all R.D.Wood Mfg. "Standard" models, with one 4.5 and 2 2.5 discharges. And, we ALWAYS put an Engine on the Hydrant. ALWAYS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking View Post
    Engine 1 stops in front of house on fire, catches their own plug, and pulls off 2 preconnects to attack the fire.

    Engine 2 pulls up...they did NOT catch a plug, they pull a couple of their own preconnects off but do NOT have an easily accessible plug. Engine 1 isn't using all the water that is available from their hydrant.

    Engine 2 can hook a short sleeve of 5" (not hard suction) from their intake to Engine 1's unused intake. The reason it has to be on the intake and not the discharge of E-1 is simple...Engine 2 does not want any additional pressure from Engine 1...(remember, E-1 is pumping attack lines, we don't want 150 psi pushing water to E-2 through 15' of 5" hose) If we attached to E-1's discharge we would get all the pump pressure (unless we gated down)...but why gate down since you can attach to the intake and avoid the risk of water hammer altogether.
    Perfect explanation. Makes sense to me now. Sounds like something to try the next time we have a good water supply setup at a drill.
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