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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber evfd3100's Avatar
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    Default Ideas On New E-One Tanker/Pumper

    I am in charge of specing out a new tanker/pumper. It will more than likely be an E-One on a Typhoon chassis, we're pretty much an E-One department. I am trying to spec with provisions in mind for this truck supporting an aerial platform in the next 3-5 years. We do not have any sister departments that have an aerial, so I don't have any setups to reference to. I'm in the process of finalizing the specs on a sample bid package. Some of the basics this truck will have:

    425HP Cummins/Allison transmission
    2500 gal tank
    1500 gpm Hale single stage
    2½ in. intake each side
    5 in. intake each side one with piston intake valve
    5 in. discharge each side (provisioned for future aerial)
    2 2½ in. discharges on each side (4 total)
    Electric drop tank rack
    Preconnected 2½ and 1½ line in hosebed and room for 1000ft 5 in.

    I'm curious as to what types of pump/panel/plumbing setups have worked well for other departments that have been in a similar situation as ours.
    Assistant Chief
    Elberta Volunteer Fire Department
    http://www.elbertafire.com

    "Find a purpose in life so big, it will challenge every capacity to be at your best."


  2. #2
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    IF your going to need an arial platform, then you better design it for that. I dont think you can add a platform to a truck that easy after its built.

    Your going to have a hard time buiding a truck like you want with a platform. How many ft. platform did you want? 85' 100'?

    Check out Fallon NV's ladder. Its only 62ft and no platform, but it does have 2000gal of water and A@B foam. It maybe similar to what you want.

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    Default

    i think he means "supporting" as in pumping to a future purchased tower and complimenting equipment.

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    Thanks, I took the word to literal.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber evfd3100's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FD1976 View Post
    i think he means "supporting" as in pumping to a future purchased tower and complimenting equipment.
    correct. this truck will run as a company with the aerial in the future. the situation we're in right now we're really a truck short. we're thinking about making this new truck a first due truck since the 425HP should move it fairly quickly. 2500 gallons should have some staying power until the second due 3000 gallon elliptical shows up, plus automatic aid thats coming. i'm specing it out to be as flexible as possible in use...the way we're figuring is if we're spending $400k+ on a rig we might as well run it first due also.
    Assistant Chief
    Elberta Volunteer Fire Department
    http://www.elbertafire.com

    "Find a purpose in life so big, it will challenge every capacity to be at your best."

  6. #6
    Forum Member Engine305's Avatar
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    Default Tanker Pumper

    Make sure the Tank to pump line is big enough, give it a spec like :
    "
    " must be able to pump from tank at 1000 gpm for 90% of tank capacity "

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber evfd3100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engine305 View Post
    Make sure the Tank to pump line is big enough, give it a spec like :
    "
    " must be able to pump from tank at 1000 gpm for 90% of tank capacity "
    That's something I completely overlooked......
    Assistant Chief
    Elberta Volunteer Fire Department
    http://www.elbertafire.com

    "Find a purpose in life so big, it will challenge every capacity to be at your best."

  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by evfd3100 View Post
    I am in charge of specing out a new tanker/pumper. It will more than likely be an E-One on a Typhoon chassis, we're pretty much an E-One department. I am trying to spec with provisions in mind for this truck supporting an aerial platform in the next 3-5 years. We do not have any sister departments that have an aerial, so I don't have any setups to reference to. I'm in the process of finalizing the specs on a sample bid package. Some of the basics this truck will have:

    425HP Cummins/Allison transmission
    2500 gal tank
    1500 gpm Hale single stage
    2½ in. intake each side
    5 in. intake each side one with piston intake valve
    5 in. discharge each side (provisioned for future aerial)
    2 2½ in. discharges on each side (4 total)
    Electric drop tank rack
    Preconnected 2½ and 1½ line in hosebed and room for 1000ft 5 in.

    I'm curious as to what types of pump/panel/plumbing setups have worked well for other departments that have been in a similar situation as ours.

    Couple items:

    1) 1500 gpm will require 6" intakes not 5". This will drive adaptors, strainers etc purchase in the correct size.

    2) 5" discharge? Is that 5" LDH? If so then it will be a 3 or 4" discharge adapted to 5" or you will pay BIG bucks.

    3) 5" discharge at the operator panel (if side panel) is a bad idea. IMO it is safer to discharge on the opposite side of the truck and intake from a pressurized source on the same side. (AWAY from the operator.)

    4) Instead of a piston intake look at the MIV from Hale. Same result without hanging on the outside and you can get the MIV-E and control it from the panel vs. the valve. It can have a manual over electric incase it breaks.

    5) Make sure you have everything that you can accessible from the ground.

    6) Get Pak-Trak or something similar to organize your compartments so everything has a place and it is in it's place.

    7) Get Red lights in the cab for night vision lighting.

    8) Get the manufacturer to install the antenna mounts in the cab so you don't have to rip it apart to do so or pay someone to do so.

    9) Consider Class A foam.

    10) Consider max-ing out the Q-max pump capacity your motor will do it and the cost is pretty small once you jump from the Q-flo to the Q-max.

    11) LED emergency lighting....

    12) 12V scene lighting as well as 120V if you use 120v

    13) If you have 120v on truck, consider putting outlet in the cab for long incidents.

    14) Discharges you did not mention anything out the rear but preconnects.?

    15) Deluge or provisions for it.

    16) Rear dumps: Side? Round vs. Square???

    17) Direct tank fills??? what works in your area?





    Just some thoughts....
    Last edited by ChiefDog; 05-12-2007 at 12:14 PM.

  9. #9
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    How about a pumper with 1500gal and CAFS. Your could fit that on a relativly short wheelbase. YOu can knock down a lot of fire with 1500gal and CAFS.
    Dont forget to have a 6" rear preconected suction with strainer.
    I would also have a 1 3/4" on the front bumper, and a remote controll deckgun, plumed to CAFS.

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    Default

    To add on to some of chiefdog's points and even add a couple...

    He's right on an LDH discharge on the operator's side. But, you can also put an LDH discharge off the rear if you want more than one (which isn't a bad idea at times).

    If you do go with a piston or ball intake valve (TFT makes the one we use), consider using an adapter to adapt from the 6" thread to 5" storz. That way you can just take off or put on the adapter to do either way (storz suction requires a specific adapter if I recall correctly).

    The cost of going from a 1500gpm pump to a 2000 gpm (which should be possible with that engine) is minimal, look into doing it.

    Remember your dumps!

    Not only look at increasing the size of your tank-to-pump, but also look at your tank fill. If you're shuttling with this thing or need to dump some water into the tank quick, it'll be beneficial.

    Look at a large tank-fill port to fill directly into the tank if you're using it in a shuttle. A 4" pipe directly into the tank will fill a helluva lot faster than going through the pump and using the tank-fill line (typical tank-fill lines are only 1.5").

    If you're spending the money on a custom cab, you might look at automatic dumps controlled from the cab.

    Just some addtional thoughts.

  11. #11
    Forum Member Engine305's Avatar
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    Default Tanker/Pumper

    Yes... sorry should have said a bigger tank fill too.
    I'm not sold on a 2000 pump tho...only way you get 2000 is to use 2 intakes anyways, and if youre drafting from the front, it's really only going to draft 1100-1200 on a really good day.

    12 volt and 120 volt scene lights are a great idea also

    Consider 2 direct tank fills , one on each side of the quick dump with a performance spec also like being able to fill at 1000 gpm with no tank damage.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engine305 View Post
    Yes... sorry should have said a bigger tank fill too.
    I'm not sold on a 2000 pump tho...only way you get 2000 is to use 2 intakes anyways, and if youre drafting from the front, it's really only going to draft 1100-1200 on a really good day.

    12 volt and 120 volt scene lights are a great idea also

    Consider 2 direct tank fills , one on each side of the quick dump with a performance spec also like being able to fill at 1000 gpm with no tank damage.
    A jumbo siamese will get you two 6" suction lines to the one intake. I have seen it work and we got our 1500 Hale to push around 2000 gpm. I think TFT is or will be making them for suction. (There are lots of variables to take into consideration when you are pump testing....)

    I will agree that you will only use the 2000gpm at pump test time and you do need the second suction to make it. However, you can't add pump capacity after the truck it built. If your needs change 5 years from now and God forbid you need some pump capacity for your ISO rating you have it covered.

    Our newest is a Q-max 2000 carrying 1200 gallons of water. It was the same price for a Q-max 1250 or a Q-max 2000 with our ISL370. Same casing, same 6" intake different rating.... no additional cost.

    The original question was this would supply a future aerial or tower. Many towers have 2000 gpm pumps because you are using the waterway(s) or guns in the basket and maybe a hand line or two. I saw what a big Sutphen tower could use at a 66 appartment unit fire the next town over from us... WOW , you better have a good supply cause it will use all you give it and then some.
    Last edited by ChiefDog; 05-12-2007 at 03:30 PM.

  13. #13
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    Is a E-One Typhoon chassis available with a " tandem Rear Axle " to carry 2500 gallons of water ?

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    Default 2nd tank to pump

    Don't know what type of area you cover, hilly or flat, but we spec a lot of tankers in our area with a 2nd tank to pump line. The second one is run to the rear of the tank to allow total water availabilty to the pump when parked on a hill with the front of the truck higher than the rear. With only the one tank to pump at the front of the tank and the truck parked that way you will have 500 to 750 gallons, or more depending on incline, unable to be picked up by that front sump.

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    If you are going to go with a 1500GPM, i would just bump up to a 2000GPM Hale QMAX,

    off your pump i would go the following

    2 - 6" Main Intakes, Hale MIV's are nice, but for the money, TFT new piston intake, that is if you don't mind it on your pump panel, if you don't want that, go the MIV
    2 - 2 1/2" Left side discharges
    1 - 3" Right side discharge with 5" stortz
    1 - 4" LDH Discharge, make sure you get it 4" right out the side port, hales offers that and it can be done
    1 - 2 1/2" tank fill off the pump
    Dual 4" Tank to Pump lines i would go
    1 - 2 1/2" front bumper
    and go for 3 crosslays 2 - 2" and 1 - 2 1/2"
    1 - 2 1/2" rear discharge
    1 - 3" rear discharge
    Aux suctions as you stated
    and rear tanks fills 1 - 4" and 1 - 3"

    I would go all akron valves, my personal preference,
    And if you want, add some foam if you have the need, which i think all fire appartus if it has a pump should offer some type of foam system, they make us have all those lights, what about somthing that will assist in fighting the fire.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber evfd3100's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII View Post
    Is a E-One Typhoon chassis available with a " tandem Rear Axle " to carry 2500 gallons of water ?
    Actually, they were in the midst of an engineering change that would no longer offer a tandem axle under the Typhoon but they have put that change on hold for the time being. We got a definite confirmation on this while in our conference. You guys hit on a couple of specs I already speced in, just didn't post because I was just putting the basics. Our department mainly serves a rural area. And the water system inside city limits is not all that wonderful, however upgrades are coming in the next 5 years.

    This truck will also have:
    10KW Onan PTO generator
    NightScan Chief 3000 watt (we have 6,000 watt on our walk-in rescue...LOVE IT.)
    midship side mounted pump
    2- 2½ rear direct tank fills
    1- 1 3/4 front bumper jump line
    2- 1 3/4 crosslays
    2- 750 watt tripods
    turtle tile in all compartments
    led package
    red light for nighttime in cab
    that 2½ preconnect in the hosebed will have a blitz monitor on it
    pre plumbed deck gun
    rear dump will have switch in the cab to dump plus water level indicator. we have this setup in our Semo tanker and its GREAT.

    all of the preconnects and crosslays are setup pretty much like on our other 2 engines. we hardly ever pull 2½ lines to attack, and it works out pretty well. we are mixing use of this rig so it will be able to act as a first due engine or a second tanker unit for shuttling, etc while also thinking ahead.
    Assistant Chief
    Elberta Volunteer Fire Department
    http://www.elbertafire.com

    "Find a purpose in life so big, it will challenge every capacity to be at your best."

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    You forgot one thing, CAFS. You would need a lot less water and less likely to need tanker shuttle with CAFS.

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    MembersZone Subscriber evfd3100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    You forgot one thing, CAFS. You would need a lot less water and less likely to need tanker shuttle with CAFS.
    we need to keep the water. our current tanker is 16 years old and is in pretty rough shape, so it may come down to this truck handling the full load of that tanker in the years to come.
    Assistant Chief
    Elberta Volunteer Fire Department
    http://www.elbertafire.com

    "Find a purpose in life so big, it will challenge every capacity to be at your best."

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by evfd3100 View Post
    I am in charge of specing out a new tanker/pumper. It will more than likely be an E-One on a Typhoon chassis, we're pretty much an E-One department. .
    I forgot to say this in my other reply,

    Talk to other companies... Keep E-One honest and see if the other companies have some ideas you haven't thought of. (We have an E-One Aerial and like it.... but if there is no competion the bottom line cost doesn't have to be as good.)

    Who else has service in your area. Is it any good?

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber evfd3100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefDog View Post
    I forgot to say this in my other reply,

    Talk to other companies... Keep E-One honest and see if the other companies have some ideas you haven't thought of. (We have an E-One Aerial and like it.... but if there is no competion the bottom line cost doesn't have to be as good.)

    Who else has service in your area. Is it any good?
    Nobody close. I think Ferrara comes out of Louisiana if its something minor they can fix it on site is what they said. If something happens with our E-One rigs, its just a 30 minute drive to get them fixed. Thats one of the big draws we have to them, plus the rapport and no-haggling price cuts they have always given us. Like when we bought our walk-in rescue a few years ago, we got their price and they said "And you know we can do better than that". We said knock off about $30k and throw in a set of airbags, they said no problem. We have a great rapport with them, service center is 30 mins away and they always take care of us, which is why we're wanting to go with them. I like being able to call Sunbelt and say "Hey, need you to come look at this rig" and they're there in an hour or less.
    Assistant Chief
    Elberta Volunteer Fire Department
    http://www.elbertafire.com

    "Find a purpose in life so big, it will challenge every capacity to be at your best."

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