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    Default So. When Does It Start? When Does It End?

    I know we've kinda talked this one to death, but I really don't see how "packing your piece" would help the situation any if students and staff are allowed to carry personal weapons. To me, this would just open up a huge shooting gallery, and then once the dust settles... well anyway. Here goes:

    GMU Students Push To Carry Guns On Campus
    School Officials Say They Don't Plan To Reconsider Ban

    POSTED: 7:40 pm EDT May 15, 2007
    UPDATED: 7:58 pm EDT May 15, 2007

    FAIRFAX, Va. -- In the wake of a shooting rampage at Virginia Tech University, some students who attend George Mason University now say they want to be able to legally carry a gun on campus.

    The students said the university's ban on guns is not fair to students who are licensed to carry a firearm.

    The effort to allow students to carry weapons at GMU is led by Andrew Dysart, 25, an administration of justice major and former Marine.

    Dysart said the issue is a matter of rights, saying students should have the same rights as private citizens on campus.

    Virginia law currently allows colleges and universities to decide whether their students and faculty can carry firearms on campus. However, a spokesman for GMU said the school has no plans to reconsider its ban.

    School officials said a student who carries a weapon on campus could face suspension or expulsion.

    Dysart has formed a group called GMU Students for Carry and Conceal to change university policy.

    The university said it would rethink its stance if the General Assembly changes the state law.


    I will agree on one small point. Not everyone who "carries" is a Rambo or Chuck Norris, but not everyone is as skilled with firearms as say Mr Dyson, who has formal training.
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    you know this is almost as bad as the time my EMT buddy says that there are some people who are pushing to allow EMT's and paramedics to carry weapons.

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    Sadly Kevin, considering some of the places that we have to go to, I would almost consider it a "tool of the trade" - almost, especially like many of us I have a friend who was a Medic and was involved in two separate gun fights, and got "hit" in both events. Not fatal but bad enough. But I think that would make us even bigger targets than we already are.

    Anyhow, I think I just found the answer to my own question:

    10-Month-Old Issued Legal Gun Permit Permit Shows Up With Baby Photo On It

    POSTED: 9:04 am EDT May 16, 2007

    CHICAGO -- It will probably be quite a while before Bubba Ludwig gets to use his Firearm Owner's Identification Card.

    Bubba, whose given name is Howard David Ludwig, is just 10 months old but has been issued the official State of Illinois gun ID. The application was filled out by his father, newspaper columnist Howard Ludwig.

    The ID card arrived, complete with Bubba's toothless baby picture. The card lists the baby's height (2 feet, 3 inches), weight (20 pounds) and has a scribble where the signature should be. Ludwig said he never thought the gun permit would be approved.

    The ID card program is administered by Illinois State Police. A spokesman for the department said there are no restrictions under the law regarding the age of applicants.

    But long gun-buyers must be at least 18 in Illinois, 21 for handguns.

    Ludwig, 30, applied for the card after his own father bought Bubba a 12-gauge Beretta shotgun as a gift. The weapon will probably be kept at Ludwig's father's house until the boy is at least 14.

    Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press.


    SIIIGGGGHHH.....
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    Here in the Commonwealth of Kentucky it is just a shoot um up everyday. I mean everyone walking around packing. Yup, everyday the sound of gun fire. All those law-abiding concealed carry citizens just shoot the Commonwealth up daily.

    As for Bubba getting his permit. Here in Kentucky Bubba would need to get a permit if the gun was given to him as a gift, otherwise it goes to the commonwealth. Taking a leap based on the make, Beretta, and the fact that it is being kept at the grandfather's home would leave me to believe that grandpa is doing some estate planning. That way his grandson would get the shotgun.

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    I believe it was CNN which had an interview with a few Utah students who are allowed to carry concealed weapons on campus. I'm not sure what the number of recent campus shoot-outs in that state is, but it was interesting. The teachers weren't even aware of which students were armed and which weren't, but there were mixed feelings among the faculty. Some felt safer, while one lady was adamantly opposed to having students with guns.

    Here's another article (not CNN's) on the issue:

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/...guns29.article
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    If ANY criminal is asked what his biggest fear is, he'll tell you it's the normal, but ARMED citizen who is concealed carrying. He's not afraid of courts, LEO's or anything else except for that one person who the criminal didn't know was armed and ruined their plan. Most shooting rampages occur in "Gun Free" zones, because the shooter sees the "gun free" signs and knows that people are "defenseless".
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    Malahat, you want to know how it could help:

    Bank robbery witness praised

    In short, an average citizen on an average day found himself in the middle of a bank robbery where the scumbag perp shot the place up but was stopped in large part because the average citizen was armed.

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    Ah, yes. The stories that never get air-time.
    "Yeah, but as I've always said, this country has A.D.D." - Denis Leary

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    Nice story, EFD. But I would say he just had good fortune, because he could easily be a dead hero, with a loaded weapon in his hand. However, in saying that it is not my intention to take away from the good he did. I just think he was fortunate to find at the "good end" of an idiot. And all too often there are stories of the "good guy" who got charged for discharging a weapon in a public place, even though he did a "good job" at stopping the bad guy.

    Its a sad state of social affairs when private citizens feel the need to carry personal weapons. It doesnt matter what language you speak, what country you live in, anywhere on the planet - its still sad. But then that is also human nature to kill one another for the "sport" of it; no other species on the planet is quite like us. Kinda makes ya wonder what kind of "God" would allow that to happen to His Pride and Joy species. Of course, maybe He really is vengeful, since we are purported to be created in His Image.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    At Mason I was unable to accept a job offer as an armed guard because I would not have been allowed to keep the weapon in my dorm room. For a little while I hoped I could get an exception, but then realized with the under developed mentality of the 18-21 set living in the dorms away from mom and dad, it eas probably a good thing not to have it there. It would be impossible for me to be able to secure it 100% at all times while I was out at class or down the hall taking a shower. All that I would need is one suicidal roommate/floormate to wander in at the wrong time.... This was after I had spent my four years on active duty in the Marines. The real situation arises for the cops that I was in a few classes with who were working on their degree on their off hours in hopes of promotion down the line. While they were required to carry off duty, they had to stop off at the GMU police department before every class and surrender their weapon. As anyone who is aware of anything about Mason beyond the 2006 Men's Basketball Team knows it is a small campus community with a HUGE commuter student component. A total waste of time for the off-duty officer, and a waste of a free resource for campus security. The ideas of some in gun safety on campus start too early, and for others it ends too late. We need some common scence middle ground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EFD840 View Post
    Malahat, you want to know how it could help:

    Bank robbery witness praised

    In short, an average citizen on an average day found himself in the middle of a bank robbery where the scumbag perp shot the place up but was stopped in large part because the average citizen was armed.
    He stopped the bad guy, but also put Mr. Gooding back in danger..... it really is a tough call, but luckly things turned out OK. But if concealed carry laws really worked that well, the murderer would have been to scared to have robbed the bank in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    He stopped the bad guy, but also put Mr. Gooding back in danger..... it really is a tough call, but luckly things turned out OK. But if concealed carry laws really worked that well, the murderer would have been to scared to have robbed the bank in the first place.

    Banks are off limits while concealed carrying.
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    Funny with all this gun talk I come across this article. Maybe we should carry weapons as firefighters. You never know when you will be attacked by a fox! But until we get to carry guns, I guess we will have to continue to run home and get our own for the more "serious" calls like these guys.

    http://post-journal.com/articles.asp?articleID=15649

    Fox Attack Sends Ellery Couple To Hospital

    By LOREN KENT

    5/17/2007 - ELLERY — Mary Jane Keller isn’t used to fighting with wild animals at her quiet country home in Ellery, but that’s exactly what she did when confronted with a wild grey fox early Wednesday morning.

    Mary Jane and her husband, Kenneth, first noticed the grey fox about 8 p.m. Tuesday when they heard their dogs barking and growling outside.

    ‘‘We looked outside and saw our dogs standing nose to nose with the fox, they were really barking. At first we thought it was a coyote,’’ Kenneth Keller said. ‘‘It looked about the same size as our small dog, maybe 10 or 15 pounds with a big bushy tail.’’

    The Kellers have two dogs, Schatzi and Katie, both are kept in a fenced-in area behind their garage. The fox went away, the dogs quieted down and the couple thought they had seen the last of the wild animal. Like any other evening, the couple went about their business and went to bed without much concern. When Mrs. Keller heard the dogs yelping at about 4 a.m., she took a spotlight and a club and went outside to investigate. Although she did not know at the time what it was, a grey fox attacked her from behind, biting her ankle.

    ‘‘The grass was wet from the rain and I slipped and fell,’’ Mrs. Keller recalled. ‘‘I kept beating the animal, trying to make it go away, but it kept biting me on the leg and wrist. I hit it so hard that I broke the stick — I hit it so hard that my shoulder is sore today.’’

    After a thorough thrashing, the fox stopped moving and Mrs. Keller thought the animal was dead. She picked herself up, went back inside the house and called the Ellery Fire Department for help.

    Hearing another commotion, Mrs. Keller went back outside. The fox was gone from where she had left it and was in the pen with the dogs, where their terrier was fighting with it. At this point, Mrs. Keller woke her husband for help.

    ‘‘I came out and shot at the fox several times with a pistol,’’ Keller said. ‘‘It escaped from the dog pen and disappeared under our RV.’’

    Within moments, the ambulance and fire department arrived and began treating Mrs. Keller’s injuries. While she was in the ambulance, the fox reappeared and attacked and bit her husband.

    ‘‘The animal was attacking everyone in sight,’’ Mrs. Keller said. ‘‘Some of the firemen returned with guns and the fox attacked them too. At one point, one of the firemen dropped his hat and the fox attacked the hat.’’

    The battle ended when a fireman shot the fox several times, killing it. Mrs. Keller received a call Wednesday from the Chautauqua County Health Department notifying her the fox had been sent for rabies testing. Test results will be available Friday. Health Department officials refused comment Wednesday, saying the department’s director was away from the office. Officials from the local office of the state Department of Environmental Conservation also refused to comment and referred questions to the county Health Department.

    The couple was taken to WCA Hospital and each was treated for multiple bite wounds and released. Mrs. Keller received about ten stitches in her leg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Sadly Kevin, considering some of the places that we have to go to, I would almost consider it a "tool of the trade" - almost, especially like many of us I have a friend who was a Medic and was involved in two separate gun fights, and got "hit" in both events. Not fatal but bad enough. But I think that would make us even bigger targets than we already are.

    Anyhow, I think I just found the answer to my own question:

    10-Month-Old Issued Legal Gun Permit Permit Shows Up With Baby Photo On It

    POSTED: 9:04 am EDT May 16, 2007

    CHICAGO -- It will probably be quite a while before Bubba Ludwig gets to use his Firearm Owner's Identification Card.

    Bubba, whose given name is Howard David Ludwig, is just 10 months old but has been issued the official State of Illinois gun ID. The application was filled out by his father, newspaper columnist Howard Ludwig.

    The ID card arrived, complete with Bubba's toothless baby picture. The card lists the baby's height (2 feet, 3 inches), weight (20 pounds) and has a scribble where the signature should be. Ludwig said he never thought the gun permit would be approved.

    The ID card program is administered by Illinois State Police. A spokesman for the department said there are no restrictions under the law regarding the age of applicants.

    But long gun-buyers must be at least 18 in Illinois, 21 for handguns.

    Ludwig, 30, applied for the card after his own father bought Bubba a 12-gauge Beretta shotgun as a gift. The weapon will probably be kept at Ludwig's father's house until the boy is at least 14.

    Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press.


    SIIIGGGGHHH.....
    This was all over Australian news tonight..

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    If people were offended by the awful gun laws in the US, I believe they would be free to go to a place where the gun laws are not so offensive. Say, Canada for example. It's still an open border.

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    George, my disagreement is not with the gun law itself. Its with the apparent need for carrying a personal weapon that I find great sadness with. Perceived need or practical need, its still sad. By practical need, I mean outside of LEO operations.
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    There was a student at VT who had a permt to carry a weapon, yet the liberal school prohibited it. This student was in the building where most of the kids were killed. If he had a gun he may have been able to stop the madness. How many would still be alive today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    If people were offended by the awful gun laws in the US, I believe they would be free to go to a place where the gun laws are not so offensive. Say, Canada for example. It's still an open border.
    Now now, George. Malahat has at least one good point I can agree with. It is a sad state of social affairs when citizens feel the need to carry guns to protect themselves.

    However, it isn't likely that we will ban guns with any chance of successful reduction in crime. We tried to ban alcohol, and the right to drink wasn't even guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. We all know how that turned out. Instead of having organized crime mobs using guns to sell their alcohol, we're going to have those mobs using guns to sell more guns. How's that for a sad state of society?

    I don't think that carrying guns is a mark of a vengeful personality. I think that is an unfortunate stereotype inclusive of the 99.9% of gun owners who are law abiding citizens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    There was a student at VT who had a permt to carry a weapon, yet the liberal school prohibited it. This student was in the building where most of the kids were killed. If he had a gun he may have been able to stop the madness. How many would still be alive today?
    Virginia Tech is far from what can be discribed as a liberal school, it is no Liberty University or Bob Jones University either, it is your typical large public university with all points of view coming together in an intellectual bang. The school does/did not prohibit firearms, the Commonwealth of Virginia did, and if you think that Virginia has Liberal gun control laws, than you are an ignorent fool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    There was a student at VT who had a permt to carry a weapon, yet the liberal school prohibited it. This student was in the building where most of the kids were killed. If he had a gun he may have been able to stop the madness. How many would still be alive today?
    Big word. IF. No two letter word has such influence.

    IF he had a gun, could he have also been another shooter?
    IF he had a gun, could ha have been shot as a suspected shooter?

    IF.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Big word. IF. No two letter word has such influence.

    IF he had a gun, could he have also been another shooter?
    IF he had a gun, could ha have been shot as a suspected shooter?

    IF.
    6.5 million dollar question:

    What IF he had a gun, but missed the intended target and killed someone else?

    In the Army Lexicon of Words that would be considered "collateral damage", or "acceptable loss", but try to explain that one in a civil court.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFRH28 View Post
    Banks are off limits while concealed carrying.
    Guns are not allowed in banks due to the bank not wanting guns in there. There is no state law (in KY) or federal law that specifically states guns are not allowed in banks.

    For all the times a person can find when someone with a gun does a "good deed", you can find just as many if not more instances of someone getting killed accidentally with a gun.

    How many people have been accidentally shot by a stray bullet from a police shootout? If those who have the training and under duress at the time of a shooting has a hard time hitting a target, how is someone who doe not have the training going to perform well?

    The big "if" is a useless point in an arguement. Here in KY if my sister had b*lls, I would be dating my brother.

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    Just a few random, semi-related thoughts on the subject. First, the story out of Chicago is nothing but inflammatory yellow journalism worthy of William Randolph Hearst. People have been known to register their children and pets for all types of government programs - sometimes even to vote - and you're lucky if it makes the local paper. Since this story involved a big, evil gun then it MUST go international. I also find it very interesting that it comes from Chicago. They've got gun laws that face a bleak future if the overturning of DC's handgun ban is upheld by the Supreme Court. Also, this was no concealed carry permit, just an ownership registration. Odd and unnecessary of a toddler, but according to the story not illegal.

    Dennis is right that concealed carry laws aren't a panacea for crime and there are a great number of people that, for reasons of criminal history or mental health, should not possess any type of weapon. Additionally, nobody should ever possess a gun unless they're competent in its use and prepared to use it. Guns aren't scarecrows.

    There is also a far greater number of people that are reasonable, responsible adults capable of being responsible owners of weapons. The reality of our country is that we have roughly one firearm for every man, woman, and child living here. The bad guys will get and carry guns. Responsible, law-abiding citizens should have that same opportunity.

    As far as the story I posted is concerned, you can indeed what-if it to death. The hostage could have been killed because the citizen intervened, or the shooter could have got away and killed a few more folks just down the street. What DID happen was the citizen prevented the bad guy's escape.

    Malahat, I completely agree that it is a sad situation when society doesn't value life but, and this is a very big but, tell me when it has ever been any different. Tell me the last time you saw a nature show where the predator targeted the strongest of the herd, we all know they target the weak and humans are no different. History repeatedly tells us that given the opportunity, evildoers will prey on those that don't have the means to resist. Always been that way, always will be that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    If people were offended by the awful gun laws in the US, I believe they would be free to go to a place where the gun laws are not so offensive. Say, Canada for example. It's still an open border.

    In Australia, as many will know there is alot tighter gun control, and there is no "right to bare arms" or such, in any constitution / bill of rights / law..

    Australia also have a seriously lower percentage of gun related crimes / shootings / incidents.. Compared to the United States - (With yearly murder/ gun related deaths being about the same as a weekly statistic for the US)..

    Without trying to stir the pot, (because i'm not), I believe the reason we have such strict gun prohibition is the reason we don't have nearly as much gun violence in our country..

    *albeit still unfortunately hold the record for a single "killing spree" (for serious lack of a better phrase) when Martin Bryant(sp) went out and killed 35 people in Tasmania in the mid 90's ... - Still the worst ever case of gun violence in Australia*

    Now, I know it is a (believe constitutional?) right to bare arms in the United States, but I think its time some people get serious and put 2 and 2 together.. - Is this the reason gun related violence (including malicios wounding/assaults, robberies & Murder) is so high ? .. You only have to look at the stats to see how tragic of a problem it really is.

    A question which could be debated for eternity..

    -In saying that, in all honesty, as long as my (including international) fellow firefighting brothers and sisters come home safe, i'm happy.

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    Banning guns won't work. The guns are already out there. It's too late for that option.

    Unfortunately, not much will change regarding guns in the US. It's too late.

    If everyone (who wanted) had guns, would crooks not commit crimes using guns? Don't know. Maybe they would stop threatening to shoot and would simply shoot first. Maybe not. Would violent crimes go down? Don't know. Would drunken/angry/upset/accidental crimes now involve more guns? Don't know. I see people with road rage punching out car windows...do we let them shoot it out first? Would the road rage not occur because the other guy might be carrying a gun?




    there's that IF again...
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