1. #1
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    Default What do you think?

    I just recieved this months FE magazine. Every month they do a "Roundtable" discussion where various fire department members answer a question every month. The respondants represent various ranks and range from the largest fire department in the world to I am sure, some of the smallest.

    It has, as I read these answers on a monthly basis, become apprent why the fire service lacks state and federal funding like many, many police agencies receive.

    Here is this months question: What necessary fireground activity do you believe is the most dangerous for firefighters, and how can that activity be made safer? In order for me to make my point, I am going to only focus on the first part of the question. What necessary fireground activity do you believe is the most dangerous.

    This months discussion had 15 people representing 14 fire departments answer that question.

    Chief Rick Lasky - Lewisville, TX. Interior fire operations, but only after first stating while operatin in or near traffic.

    Chief Gary Seidel - Hiilsboro, OR. Entering IDLH atmosphere.

    Battalion Chief John Salka - FDNY. Operating in smoke filled environments.

    Fire Protection Advisor Craig Shelley - Saudi Aramco. Extinguishment.

    Deputy Chief Thomas Dunne - FDNY. Search, especially floors above.

    Firefighter Bobby Shelton - Cincinnati, OH. Search and rescue.

    Lieutenant Mike Mason - Downers Grove, IL. Search.

    Lieutenant Jeffery Schwering - Crestwood, Mo. Overhaul.

    Lieutenant Russ Chapman - Milford, CT. Search, especially in a basement or floors above.

    Lieutenant Christopher Fleming - Portland, ME. Decision making. (Yes, that was actually his answer.)

    Lieutenant Randall Hanifen - West Chester, OH. Search and Rescue.

    Captain Michael Farrell - Waterbury, CT. Search above the fire floor.

    Lieutenant Jim Mason - Chicago, IL. Rescue.

    County Fire Coordinator Bruce Peacock - Brant County, Paris, Ontario. Operating on the roof of new homes.

    Captain Skip Heflin - Hall County, GA. Search and Rescue.



    I was not in the magazine, but I think I most agree with Lieutenant Russ Chapman. Conducting search and rescue operations - especially in basements or floors above. I would further specify in the early stages of a working fire and without the protection of a hoseline.

    My point is this. Imagine that the Federal bean counters were asking this question. They would have gotten 8 different answers from 15 people. And this was a good month, but should be an easy question answer. IMO, at least 5 people did not even really answer the question. To me, a blanket statement of going in the smoke is not a valid answer. Two people must have been asleep or not paying attention. Overhaul and decision making?? Both rediculous, especially decision making. I don't know that I have ever heard of anyone outside thinking about something getting hurt, unless maybe something fell out of the sky.

    Anyway, my point is that until we as a fire service all get on the same page we are never going to get anything. Go ask the same question to the police chiefs in the same towns. I bet that they all answer shoot outs are the most dangerous activity and they all need more cops. End of story. Yes we all have our unique towns and situations, but until we can at least answer questions and agree on the very basics of operations, I do not think we will ever see the support (money) of anyone outside of our own miniscule agencies.

    What is the difference other than the fact that PD's are able to generate funds? Is that the only answer or does it lie in their more united front?

    What do you think?
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    A united front? We can shoot for that, but I'm not betting the house on it.

    Yesterday, while at a forest fire, had the opportunity to talk with a few guys from 5 or 6 different departments. We talked about 2 things mainly. Search tactics and FAST.

    Of the 6, mine is the only one that has search above the fire as a tactic. The other 5 thought it was too dangerous and should never be done.

    Their idea of a FAST is 3 guys that are not actively involved in the fire attack and yes, they could be guys that are in rehab. Our FAST response is 6 FF's minimum.

    You won't get a "united" answer here.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I'm not sure what the responders meant, but I do see the merit in mentioning both overhaul and decision making.

    My reasoning for overhaul is that too many (more likely involving smaller departments) firefighters don't realize the inherent dangers present during overhaul. Carbon monoxide and other toxic gases are obvious to most of us. However, how often do firefighters get caught off-guard by a collapse during overhaul operations.

    Decision making to me is obvious. From what I've read, it is taking 30 years to replace a 20 year veteran of the fire service. The primary reason is the 20-year vets saw a lot more fire than we do now. As a result, those guys have "been there, done that" when dangerous conditions are present and recognize them. Us newer guys are seen less fires and are fighting fires in less well-built structures. So, the decision making abilities (or probably more accurate, the ability to recognize safety issues) of newer officers isn't quite up to the caliber of the guys in the position 20 years ago. Realistically, how many firefighters are we killing because of bad decision making? It can be reasoned (not necessarily reasonable, mind you) that anytime a firefighter is killed, it's due to poor decision making. "They shouldn't have been in the structure," or "the driver shouldn't have been allowed to go that fast," or a variety of other situations.

    Don't get me wrong, I do understand what you're saying and I agree we should be on the same page, but I do think in my mind that those two answers shouldn't be written off as being "asleep or not paying attention."

    I'm definitely going to have to dig out the station's copy when I get to work in the morning to read the whole story.

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    As I write this I'm just opening to page 38. Not quite at the Roundtable, thanks for the spoiler!!! So even before I read it I want to know, and I would think those here too: What were the answers as to how to reduce the dangers? To me the "united front" should be as it is summed up in Bobby Halton's excellant editiorial: STAFFING!!!

    Good topic, too bad FH won't like it.

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    You have to remember that these are people's personal opinions.

    The united front has to come from all aspects of the fire service.
    We will never see it because...

    Career guys bash volunteers

    Volunteers bash career guys

    Career guys playing volunteer in an area where they have union Brothers working to support their families

    Volunteers telling city and towns with career guys that they will come and fight fires for free

    The nonsense about "interior and exterior" firefighters

    "Firefighters and politicians" saying that 14 year olds, juniors and Explorers should be considered firefighters

    A lack of fitness and training standards for volunteers because " they are only volunteers and quit if we ask them to meet any kind of standards

    Alcohol in the firehouse

    Until these issues are dealt with, there will never be a united front in the fire service.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    You have to remember that these are people's personal opinions.

    The united front has to come from all aspects of the fire service.
    We will never see it because...

    Career guys bash volunteers

    Volunteers bash career guys

    Career guys playing volunteer in an area where they have union Brothers working to support their families

    Volunteers telling city and towns with career guys that they will come and fight fires for free

    The nonsense about "interior and exterior" firefighters

    "Firefighters and politicians" saying that 14 year olds, juniors and Explorers should be considered firefighters

    A lack of fitness and training standards for volunteers because " they are only volunteers and quit if we ask them to meet any kind of standards

    Alcohol in the firehouse

    Until these issues are dealt with, there will never be a united front in the fire service.
    I wondered how long it would take for this to turn into career vs. vollie. 4 replies. Wow.

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    I also mention career firefighters, too.. of which I am.. or did you convienently ignore that?

    Remember, there are more of you than there are of us.. so why hasn't the NVFC worked to get their membership on the same page?
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 05-17-2007 at 03:09 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    I also mention career firefighters, too.. of which I am.. or did you convienently ignore that?

    Remember, there are more of you than there are of us.. so why hasn't the NVFC worked to get their membership on the same page?
    NVFC members are, by and large, on the same page. There just aren't very many of them(us).
    Last edited by randsc; 05-17-2007 at 03:25 PM.

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    Who's the NVFC?


    Are they that group that is supposed to represent us? They are the same as the Men In Black that the government hides. You hear about them, but you never actually see them.


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    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Who's the NVFC?


    Are they that group that is supposed to represent us? They are the same as the Men In Black that the government hides. You hear about them, but you never actually see them.


    Not
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    Yeah, that's what kills me about people (who shall remain nameless) decrying the power of "the vollie lobby".

    Politically, the NVFC is a complete non-entity. And I say that as a dues-paying member.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    A united front? We can shoot for that, but I'm not betting the house on it.
    Yeah, to be honest I wouldn't bet on it either. Just a thought. It would seem that the IAFF, IAFC, NVFC, state associations, and locals could all agree on staffing.

    No matter paid or volunteer - it seems that is the single biggest threat to the lack of adequate fire protection that would affect the most firedepartments. But that is also only my opinion. Like the roundtable shows however, we cannot even agree on the most basic of tactics.

    RFDACM02 - Sorry pal. Didn't mean to spoil it for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Decision making to me is obvious. From what I've read, it is taking 30 years to replace a 20 year veteran of the fire service. The primary reason is the 20-year vets saw a lot more fire than we do now. As a result, those guys have "been there, done that" when dangerous conditions are present and recognize them. Us newer guys are seen less fires and are fighting fires in less well-built structures. So, the decision making abilities (or probably more accurate, the ability to recognize safety issues) of newer officers isn't quite up to the caliber of the guys in the position 20 years ago. Realistically, how many firefighters are we killing because of bad decision making? It can be reasoned (not necessarily reasonable, mind you) that anytime a firefighter is killed, it's due to poor decision making. "They shouldn't have been in the structure," or "the driver shouldn't have been allowed to go that fast," or a variety of other situations.
    I do understand what you are saying. I don't disagree that the ability to make quick and still good decisions that are carried out without killing people is definately a good quality, but to me looking at something and deciding what you want to do is not only not the most dangerous activity, it has an almost nill danger factor. Carrying out poor tactics might be dangerous, but you can think about it all day long and remain as safe as being in your house thinking about the show you are watching. Don't believe me?? Click over to the tactics section and read what some people write - somethimes beyond reason, but their still typing away safe as can be.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 05-17-2007 at 07:18 PM.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    It's alright Memphis, I still found the variety of answers interesting. I think you may have given Salka a rough ride about just "being in smoke" not being a valid answer. I thought he went on to explain his answer fairly well . Staying oriented may be the best common answer to the best answered issue.I got to agree with you on the Lt. from Milford, CT. While I wouldn't say an engine crew has it easy, basic search ahead of the line, above the fire or below the point of entry with no "lifeline" back to the street is some of the most dangerous work we do routinely.

    While training is a huge component, staffing is deplorable in most departments nationwide. How many different functions does each FF have to do in the course of a fire? How long before there's back up lines laid? Hell, how long before the first line is in position? How long before the search starts? (see the Tactics thread) How far out is the RIT? How many FF's are in the RIT? How many mutual aid coompanies does it take to fill out a basic first alarm assignment? And how long does that take? And all the while...the fire still burns, eating at the structure, finding voids, spreading, and conditions deteriorate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I do understand what you are saying. I don't disagree that the ability to make quick and still good decisions that are carried out without killing people is definately a good quality, but to me looking at something and deciding what you want to do is not only not the most dangerous activity, it has an almost nill danger factor. Carrying out poor tactics might be dangerous, but you can think about it all day long and remain as safe as being in your house thinking about the show you are watching. Don't believe me?? Click over to the tactics section and read what some people write - somethimes beyond reason, but their still typing away safe as can be.
    I'm with you man. Not trying to disagree with you or anything, just throwing out my thoughts on the two answers. I like to think when comanding a scene or crew, I stay aggressive and safe. There is a middle ground in there somewhere. I do tend to think there are those on both sides of the fence that go way overboard.

    I go over to tactics now and then. I usually try to read the opinions and stay out of the middle of some of the discussions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    I wondered how long it would take for this to turn into career vs. vollie. 4 replies. Wow.
    Everything mentioned is something both sides are guilty of. (I still have to read the article though) Is it true or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I think you may have given Salka a rough ride about just "being in smoke" not being a valid answer. I thought he went on to explain his answer fairly well .
    I can assure you that if I was trying to give anyone a rough ride it would not have been him. From everything I have ever heard about him he is a super knowledgable firefighter and he looks like he would eat me for lunch. I think it was pretty clear which person I really did not agree with.

    Let me further state that all of the answers given are, I am sure, important factors for their departments. I just find it odd that on such a basic question there was still such a variety of answers.

    Maybe I am reading to much into the question, but if you ask me the same thing I would answer what single tactic is the most dangerous. I think some of the respondants were entirely to broad with their answers. Entering an IDLH environment for example is too broad of an answer for this question. Entering the IDLH environment to do ____________., is the better answer IMO.

    Maybe I am way off base. Just thinking out loud.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Just thinking out loud.
    Don't you know that's dangerous!

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    I have to agree with the great Chief Gonz.......

    Until we agree on things, there is no way we can have a unified front due to the exact things he has listed.

    This is the single most dangerous thing.....fighting among ourselves.
    Jason Knecht
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    Ya know, Chief...I respect you as much as one can just based upon forum interaction and having never worked with or known a guy IRL, and for the most part, I agree with a lot of what you have to say...BUT in this one instance, I have to agree with the guy who threw the "Career vs Volunteer" flag on the play:

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    You have to remember that these are people's personal opinions.

    The united front has to come from all aspects of the fire service.
    We will never see it because...

    Career guys bash volunteers
    True, but with all due respect, I think Vollies have more "fire" in the "Inbox" than the "Outbox", as I'll point out below.

    Volunteers bash career guys
    Also true, but I think for the most part it's reactionary to a real or perceived attack upon volunteers.

    Career guys playing volunteer in an area where they have union Brothers working to support their families
    This can be taken as an attack on Volunteers, also...since as someone else so eloquently said: we (volunteers who aren't career anywhere) are just as guilty of "taking food from a man's family" as a career guy who vollies in another locale, even in a purely volunteer department.

    Volunteers telling city and towns with career guys that they will come and fight fires for free
    Sorry, I'm a member of a combination department...so I do take a bit of offense to this one. This area can't afford a functioning all-career deparment. Sure, they could get rid of we volunteers, and just run 1.5 guys per station per shift... and send all 10 stations to every structure call, just to have sufficient manpower. .......I didn't think that was such a good idea either.

    The nonsense about "interior and exterior" firefighters
    I don't agree with it any more than you, Chief, or the rest of the majority who think this's moronic...giving HotTrotter's idiocy airtime does us all a disservice.

    "Firefighters and politicians" saying that 14 year olds, juniors and Explorers should be considered firefighters
    And we all know that HotTrotter is far more of a politician than he is a FF.

    A lack of fitness and training standards for volunteers because " they are only volunteers and quit if we ask them to meet any kind of standards
    Again, another attack on Volunteers, whether intended or not...

    Alcohol in the firehouse
    One issue I agree with--alcohol has no place in a Fire Station, any more than it does a Police Precinct or a Hospital...but again, it still is a "Volunteer-only" issue (I know of NO career agencies that allow alcohol to be present or consumed on their premesis), and can be construed as an "attack".

    Until these issues are dealt with, there will never be a united front in the fire service.
    Given all the "volunteer-specific" issues brought up, the underlying premise seems to be: "Get rid of volunteers, and the issues will be dealt with...then there will be a united front in the Fire Service..."
    Am I reading this all about right?
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Steering back to the original topic:

    I generally read those Roundhouse discussions with a grain of salt... as a few have pointed out: some "respondents" to those questions completely fail to even respond to the question, instead preferring to bloviate and prattle on about various nuances, none of which has much bearing on anything other than stoking their own egos.

    In short--with some notable few exceptions, those "discussions" come off as a big "pat yourself on the back"/circle-jerk session.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    Ya know, Chief...I respect you as much as one can just based upon forum interaction and having never worked with or known a guy IRL, and for the most part, I agree with a lot of what you have to say...BUT in this one instance, I have to agree with the guy who threw the "Career vs Volunteer" flag on the play:
    Career guys bash volunteers
    True, but with all due respect, I think Vollies have more "fire" in the "Inbox" than the "Outbox", as I'll point out below.

    Theres enough fire in the inbox for career, call and volunteer. What we need is "more cowbell!" to the tune of unity!

    Volunteers bash career guys
    Also true, but I think for the most part it's reactionary to a real or perceived attack upon volunteers.

    I would say that most attacks are percieved. Sure, you have instigators on both sides, but those " in the know" can see the reality that some small towns will never be career, just like some cities and towns will never be 100% career

    Career guys playing volunteer in an area where they have union Brothers working to support their families
    This can be taken as an attack on Volunteers, also...since as someone else so eloquently said: we (volunteers who aren't career anywhere) are just as guilty of "taking food from a man's family" as a career guy who vollies in another locale, even in a purely volunteer department.

    There is no problem with those firefighters who volunteer in their off duty time in their community if their community is purely volunteer with no career firefighters. Many here do, which bring us to your next answer to my original statement..

    Volunteers telling city and towns with career guys that they will come and fight fires for free
    Sorry, I'm a member of a combination department...so I do take a bit of offense to this one. This area can't afford a functioning all-career deparment. Sure, they could get rid of we volunteers, and just run 1.5 guys per station per shift... and send all 10 stations to every structure call, just to have sufficient manpower. .......I didn't think that was such a good idea either.

    There are many departments that are combination departments. My own department was combination until the early 1980's when the call department was disbanded due to lack of response. Two of the surrounding communities ar combination departments, with the career jakes represented by the IAFF. My beef is with those who do go to City and Town halls and tell the politicians that they can close a station and lay off the firefighters assigned there because "we are close enough so can cover you"

    The nonsense about "interior and exterior" firefighters
    I don't agree with it any more than you, Chief, or the rest of the majority who think this's moronic...giving HotTrotter's idiocy airtime does us all a disservice.

    Again, this is a standards issue

    "Firefighters and politicians" saying that 14 year olds, juniors and Explorers should be considered firefighters
    And we all know that HotTrotter is far more of a politician than he is a FF.

    It's not only trotter.. scan the threads.. you have chiefs saying they are firefighters and in the Chris Kangas case, Curt Weldon, athe former Representative in the House from PA also stated that Chris Kangas was a firefighter tried to make the case for PSOB benefits

    A lack of fitness and training standards for volunteers because " they are only volunteers and quit if we ask them to meet any kind of standards
    Again, another attack on Volunteers, whether intended or not...

    Many state that "we do the same job as the career guys". but when it comes to setting and maintaining standards, they scream as if it is the end of the world. It was pointed out that most of the LODDs from heart attacks were volunteers. Fitness standards can be as easy as maintaining weight and getting an annual physical. As far as training standards, do a search on Lairdsville, where a probie with very little SCBA was killed in a training exercise and two volunteers seriously injured because they were used as "live victims" .

    When the NFPA 1403 standard for live fire training was brought up at the trial of Alan Baird (who was in charge of the fiasco) his attorney used the lines "he did;'t know about it" and "he can't be held responsible to maintain that standard, he's only a volunteer". The fire that killed Brad Golden didn't care if Brad was a volunteer or not...

    PS: career FD's are guilty too.. look at the recent case in Baltimore, where live fire standards were ignored and a probie was killed...


    Alcohol in the firehouse
    One issue I agree with--alcohol has no place in a Fire Station, any more than it does a Police Precinct or a Hospital...but again, it still is a "Volunteer-only" issue (I know of NO career agencies that allow alcohol to be present or consumed on their premesis), and can be construed as an "attack".

    It's not only a volunteer issue, brother. You have career guys having a beer or two a few hours before they go on shift. As an officer, I have had a firefighter report to duty while three sheets to the wind. I put him out for the tour as sick, drove him home and the next duty tour he and I had a long chat. It never happened again.

    You have firefighters both career and volunteer responding to callbacks after drinking and thinking it's perfectly all right.

    You have career and volunteer guys with a nip or two in their bunker gear for "those cold nights".


    Until these issues are dealt with, there will never be a united front in the fire service.
    Given all the "volunteer-specific" issues brought up, the underlying premise seems to be: "Get rid of volunteers, and the issues will be dealt with...then there will be a united front in the Fire Service..."


    Am I reading this all about right?
    Absolutely not!

    There's a place setting at the table for all of us.. we just have to be properly attired and show our best manners when the "dinner dollars" are being served... or we will end up competing with the dog for scraps!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 05-18-2007 at 01:31 PM. Reason: spelliing correction, additional thoughts
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    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Chief, Thanks for your answers to 1141's questions. I had read your earlier post, many time, and thought that your answers would be about where they are. I can also understan the feelings that the brothers in the IAFF have in regaurds to other IAFF brothers volunteering, in some cases. There appear to be a few that get completely out of joint if any member of the IAFF joins a VFD. As I said I can understand if the IAFF member joins a POC/VFD that appears to have the funds to go career, but the vollies step forward and state, hey we can do it free keep it that way, than I can see where it could be taking jobs away from career FF's. If that department can maintain ISO ratings of 1-3, which are very few. And have great responce times, then that is great. But if that department has the funds and can not maintain those responce times on every call then they should consider a career department. In my case I would welcome the money to go career or at least combination. It would be a great benefit to the community. But if it is a samll rural, under funded VFD than I would welcome the trained, and experienced IAFF brother on the department and would hope they would not get bashed from other brothers for this.

    Hope that was clear as mud, early yet.

    T.J.

  22. #22
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Good Morning....................

    Ahhhh, Where to start?....... (Still, although near the bottom, on my first cup of Coffee)

    Bones? Y'all OK up there? hope the rain we sent helped out.

    Cops and Funding??........ Easy Answer..... Ever notice that they carry guns?? Tell someone with a Glock 9mm that he/she is NOT getting funded?? Not on my watch.........

    As to the exchange between several of you, including the Deputy Chief from Marlborough, I haven't seen any "Attack" anywhere, it looks far more like a civilized debate among folks with both differing opinions AND respect for each other's right to have that differing opinion.

    If we NEVER progress beyond instilling a mutual respect for each other, and a recognition of each other's right to our own opinion, we've still climbed one Hell of a Mountain.

    Cup's empty, Be back later......
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Ahhhh, Where to start?....... (Still, although near the bottom, on my first cup of Coffee)

    Bones? Y'all OK up there? hope the rain we sent helped out.

    Cops and Funding??........ Easy Answer..... Ever notice that they carry guns?? Tell someone with a Glock 9mm that he/she is NOT getting funded?? Not on my watch.........

    As to the exchange between several of you, including the Deputy Chief from Marlborough, I haven't seen any "Attack" anywhere, it looks far more like a civilized debate among folks with both differing opinions AND respect for each other's right to have that differing opinion.

    If we NEVER progress beyond instilling a mutual respect for each other, and a recognition of each other's right to our own opinion, we've still climbed one Hell of a Mountain.

    Cup's empty, Be back later......
    Harve, get a bigger cup.

    T.J.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    Bones? Y'all OK up there? hope the rain we sent helped out.
    THANK YOU! I'm fine, just a little tired. Forest Service guys, I am sure, appreciate the rain.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    THANK YOU! I'm fine, just a little tired. Forest Service guys, I am sure, appreciate the rain.
    As do I...
    Rain makes people's cars dirty.. they call me to detail them!

    Another plus...if it falls from the sky, I don't have to pay to put it on the lawn!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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