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    Content deleted by author.
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    Should have bought an Elite

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    Default Pierce Factory Visits

    Our Dash rescue/pumper was the same way. It was not completed when we got there. It was 98% but they were still working on some loose ends. They wanted the truck out of the factory so the payments would be on time...

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    Every builder has these "problems", I wouldent read to much in to it. Fire trucks take a lot of labor, and they cant always afford to put any more time it than the budget allows.

    I wonder if the more you bargin with the price,and try to get it down, it affects quality? I wonder it they are more likely to spend more man-hours building if the price hasnt been choped down.

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    would the guy welding the body panels together know what a dept pd for a truck?

    or care????

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    No, but the supervisors would know how many man-hours each truck gets based on its selling price.

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    Don't take offense to this 807, but part of the problem IS loyal customers like your dept. Our dept was the same way for many, many years, we looked at nothing but Pierce. There are countless depts out there just like us. You know what kind of signal that sends the management at Pierce? That they have customers with blind loyalty, and there is no real danger of losing all that business. So they think they can get away with cutting corners here and there because they have all those past good feelings in the bank. That's the trouble with them being #1, as I see it...there's nowhere to go but down! Tell you what though, I'm seeing a ton more KME and ALF rigs saturate our county, which was once dominated by Pierce. In my eyes, that can only be a good thing if it's like that around the rest of the country. Sometimes the big guys need to get knocked off their high horse to regain some of the humbleness and humility that got them to where they are now. There's only so much credit you can gamble with before it's time to pay up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1500chevy97 View Post
    Should have bought an Elite
    k1500chevy, I am nominating you for the FH.Com Forums best come-back of 2007.

    Oh my god that was soooooooo perfect.....


    And hey.....807......How does that crow taste?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Post Push Them Trucks Out The Door!

    Last friday I was at a Pierce dealership, Fire & Saftey Services picking up some some brochures and information on a chassis. They had 6 brand new pumpers,aerials & rescues waiting for customer pickup and the final " PAYMENT " !...They do build one very nice looking truck.
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 05-22-2007 at 08:24 PM.

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    Did you inquire as to why your truck was late? Was the engine, tranny, pump, water tank, tires, wheels, windshield, yada yada yada delivered on time or was something late?

    Did you have a penalty clause in your contract? Did you have a short delivery requirement? Were your approval drawings returned in a timely manner? What did your sales rep say was the problem?

    And the biggest question- were the problems you encountered at final inspection corrected to your department's satisfaction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sven73 View Post
    Did you have a penalty clause in your contract? Did you have a short delivery requirement? Were your approval drawings returned in a timely manner? What did your sales rep say was the problem?
    Funny you mention the penalty clause thing- very recently I heard that Pierce has been crying the blues anytime anyone insists on one in their bid- apparently they hate the penalty clauses so badly in recent times, that they throw 3 year-old temper tantrums at the contract signings.......anyone care to confirm or deny?
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Penalty clauses were placed in our last contract, which was in October, no fuss. However, that said, we have a long standing relationship with our sales rep {who owns the sales company), and I would say that type of relationship would probably keep any fuss to a minimum for us.

    On the quality issue, I think anyone who has been buying Pierce apparatus for alot of years, and has both pre and post Oshkosh apparatus can tell the difference. Our older apparatus seemed to have a great deal more attention to detail than the newer ones. However, for us, Pierce has remained the choice for our purchase. We are in the midwest, in an area that currently sees mostly Pierce, Rosenbauer, some Crimson, ALF. E-One and KME. Their are a few purchases from the smaller localized dealers also such as Firemaster and the like. It kind of goes to the old phrase of "If it aint broke, don't fix it" for us. Our Pierce trucks, even though maybe not the quality of the past, still serve us well and we have a great relationship with our dealer who has also quickly fixed any issues we may have. As far as price, in our area Pierce is also towards the top on price, however usually not at the very top. At this point, I feel the price is worth the quality and service for us, that being said, I would not rule out some other brand stepping up to the plate and taking over some day, especially when we lose the relationship with our dealer when he retires or moves on. Just my 2 cents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    k1500chevy, I am nominating you for the FH.Com Forums best come-back of 2007.

    Oh my god that was soooooooo perfect.....


    And hey.....807......How does that crow taste?
    It just seemed so fitting with what the original post contained and who the topic starter was I could help myself

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    Man hours are “projections” that are tracked on a per apparatus basis to see if production is operating within parameters. They wouldn’t be tracked per job and utilized as a stopping point because the truck was sold cheaper. Most of the “big boys” in the business are behind the 8 ball on timely deliveries due to recalls on components, material delivery problems, shortages, qualified manpower, and some even have problems because the people in charge of production schedules are, um…. Nimrods.

    Some Mfg’s (i.e.; “the big boys”) have almost oversold their ability to get the apparatus out by dates promised. Sales are good, delivery times go up.

    There is also a new driving “methodology” that affects production – it came about in the last few years. It is called “Lean manufacturing” or just “Lean”. What this means is the bean counters in potentially bloated companies desire to cut cost by enforcing a “pull” manufacturing methodology. Not a “push”. (meaning they do not want to have things on hand and have to “push” those products.)

    In the past a Mfg would order a qty of materials to keep up with production and keep a small inventory available. Avoid shortages, stay on task – don’t switch employees from task to task because they ran out of component “X”.

    Using “Lean”, the bean counters make production Mgrs and the like; try to order ONLY exactly what they need, when they will need it, and not one piece more than needed. And it better not arrive at the factory and be sitting on the shelf until the day before it is to be used because they don’t want to have to pay one penny of financing or cost they don’t have to. This is the newest “fad”.

    It is designed to cut cost and make things cheaper and increase profits. In my opinion when this “methodology” is taken TOO literally,it does the opposite. It causes production nightmares because when the floor people don’t have the materials or components to continue a job, they stop it and switch to something else because they have a Mgr breathing down their neck, who has a bean counter breathing down his neck. Constant switching between jobs when this sort of thing happens, has all sorts of consequences – none of them good. Among these are stressing out employees – shortening their stay with a company. Stressing Managers who fear for their jobs, and overall descending quality and increased man-hours from everyone from Shipping and Receiving to assembly.

    I would not be ordering from the biggest of the big right now who can’t keep production schedules.

    You have a choice - try to drive prices as low as they can go and pay the afore mentioned costs (in consequences) OR pay the cost of Mfg's keeping higher inventories which is a few more $$.

    I know which "cost" I would rather pay.TL

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    We looked at a Pierce (new cab)at the Harrisburg show and quite frankly were very disappointed at the cab space(or lack of).The Boss got pinched between the door and doghouse and this is WITHOUT PPE on.Plus the lack of visibility from the cab is appalling.Sorry,I'll take my Spartan over the new Pierce any day.And I don't do Koolaide.T.C.

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    Rescue 101- What cab were you looking at?

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    I would imagine he was looking at the Velocity. The amount of room in the Velocity and Impel has been drastically reduced from previous cabs.

    But hey....It's the best idea you ever had. HAH!

    I agree, the Spartan is a much better cab.

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    Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'll still wait for 101 to answer me though.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by sven73 View Post
    Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'll still wait for 101 to answer me though.

    Thanks
    What is the inside of a ( Pierce Arrow XT ) like, is it better than the new models?

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    Sven,It was the Velocity cab.I'm not a huge fan of bus mirrors either.But the drivers and officers seats were cramped.And the revised doghouse leaves something to be desired at least in my book.When you try to do an right side intersection sweep,I found that the visibility was impaired compared to previous offerings.And I was trying to be objective in my evaluations with the intent of giving all the Mfgs a shot.I just don't like that cab and neither does the big Boss. And he's the one that will give the final nod.I'm just the guy who will axe anything that I don't like on the chassis/powertrain.That part's easy.If you haven't got near one yet,check it out and give me your opinion.As of right now,I prefer our Spartan's layout. T.C.

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    Thanks for the reply, 101. I have very little expierence with Spartans as the companies I have run with either used commercial units or E-1. The station I run with now runs Pierce Dash's and an older Arrow.

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    NewJerseyFF11- The inside of an Arrow has less fluff than some of the other models. As such you have more painted surfaces than say a Velocity or a Dash. However the chassis is built like a tank- heavy duty all the way. It is also hard wired as much as you can these days compared to being multi-plexed.

    The Arrow is the chassis FDNY chose for R1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Sven,It was the Velocity cab.I'm not a huge fan of bus mirrors either.But the drivers and officers seats were cramped.And the revised doghouse leaves something to be desired at least in my book.When you try to do an right side intersection sweep,I found that the visibility was impaired compared to previous offerings.And I was trying to be objective in my evaluations with the intent of giving all the Mfgs a shot.I just don't like that cab and neither does the big Boss. And he's the one that will give the final nod.I'm just the guy who will axe anything that I don't like on the chassis/powertrain.That part's easy.If you haven't got near one yet,check it out and give me your opinion.As of right now,I prefer our Spartan's layout. T.C.
    Our first impression was similar, but 2nd was much better. Raise the seat. More room and visibilty than previous models and our Spartans. Is the "big boss" very, a, "BIG"? The mirrors grow on you once you drive for awhile and don't get blocked by the officer leaning forward or reading a map. Just a thought..

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