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  1. #1
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    Default More from the religion of peace: The enemy from within.

    NY TIMES: 1 of 4 Young U.S. Muslims OK Suicide Bombings
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Some Young US Muslims OK Suicide Attacks


    By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
    Published: May 22, 2007
    Filed at 11:52 a.m. ET

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- One in four younger U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings to defend their religion are acceptable at least in some circumstances, though most Muslim Americans overwhelmingly reject the tactic and are critical of Islamic extremism and al-Qaida, a poll says.

    The survey by the Pew Research Center, one of the most exhaustive ever of the country's Muslims, revealed a community that in many ways blends comfortably into society. Its largely mainstream members express nearly as much happiness with their lives and communities as the general public does, show a broad willingness to adopt American customs, and have income and education levels similar to others in the U.S.

    Even so, the survey revealed noteworthy pockets of discontent.

    While nearly 80 percent of U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings of civilians to defend Islam can not be justified, 13 percent say they can be, at least rarely.

    That sentiment is strongest among those younger than 30. Two percent of them say it can often be justified, 13 percent say sometimes and 11 percent say rarely.

    ''It is a hair-raising number,'' said Radwan Masmoudi, president of the Washington-based Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy, which promotes the compatibility of Islam with democracy.

    He said most supporters of the attacks likely assumed the context was a fight against occupation -- a term Muslims often use to describe the conflict with Israel.

    U.S. Muslims have growing Internet and television access to extreme ideologies, he said, adding: ''People, especially younger people, are susceptible to these ideas.''

    Federal officials have warned that the U.S. must be on guard against homegrown terrorism, as the British suffered with the London transit bombings of 2005.

    Even so, U.S. Muslims are far less accepting of suicide attacks than Muslims in many other nations. In surveys Pew conducted last year, support in some Muslim countries exceeded 50 percent, while it was considered justifiable by about one in four Muslims in Britain and Spain, and one in three in France.

    ''We have crazies just like other faiths have them,'' said Eide Alawan, who directs interfaith outreach at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Mich., one of the nation's largest mosques. He said killing innocent people contradicts Islam.

    Andrew Kohut, Pew director, said in an interview that support for the attacks represented ''one of the few trouble spots'' in the survey.

    At a later news conference, he said much of that support could be attributed to age because the findings were consistent with numerous other surveys showing young people more inclined to violence and to support wars.

    The poll briefly describes the rationales for and against ''suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets'' and then asks, ''Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified?''

    The question did not specify where a suicide attack might occur, who might carry it out or what was meant by using a bombing to ''defend Islam.''

    In other findings:

    --Only 5 percent of U.S. Muslims expressed favorable views of the terrorist group al-Qaida, though about a fourth did not express an opinion.

    --Six in 10 said they are concerned about a rise in Islamic extremism in the U.S., while three in four expressed similar worries about extremism around the world.

    --Yet only one in four consider the U.S. war on terrorism a sincere attempt to curtail international terror. Only 40 percent said they believe Arab men carried out the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

    --By six to one, they say the U.S. was wrong to invade Iraq, while a third say the same about Afghanistan -- far deeper than the opposition expressed by the general U.S. public.

    --Just over half said it has been harder being a U.S. Muslim since the 9/11 attacks, especially the better educated, higher income, more religious and young. Nearly a third of those who flew in the past year say they underwent extra screening because they are Muslim.

    The survey estimates there are roughly 2.35 million Muslim Americans. It found that among adults, two-thirds are from abroad while a fifth are U.S.-born blacks.

    By law, the Census Bureau does not ask about people's religions.

    Telephone interviews were conducted with 1,050 Muslim adults from January through April, including some in Arabic, Urdu and Farsi. Subjects were chosen at random, from a separate list of households including some with Muslim-sounding names, and from Muslim households that had participated in previous surveys.

    The margin of sampling error was plus or minus 5 percentage points.



  2. #2
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Ah yes. Peaceful must mean something different when translated into Arabic.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

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    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Now lets see the poll from somewhere else in the world about a major sect of Christianity.

    I did see some good programming on the topic of Al Qaeda (among others), and thier use of the internet as a propaganda and recruiting tool. Very eye opening. We all had that stupid moment as a teenager where we thought we were going to devote our entire life to some specific cause, but most of us ran out of the Kool Aid first. These guys have done a frighteningly good job of taking it to the next level and sustaining the interest.

    As for whether this is the fault of Islam, Religion (in any of it's forms) is the root of all evil, because it is the very creator of it. Christians can fight just as hard, the only difference is they haven't been the underdog for a few hundred years. When you're the little guy in the fight, your much more willing to fight dirty to win.
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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Ah yes. Peaceful must mean something different when translated into Arabic.
    This is something we probably agree upon. Whenever a so called Christian has committed an act of atrocity against civilians (i.e. Tim McVeigh), Christian leadership has always been quick to denounce the act. I don't see the response from Muslim leadership for the violence committed by Muslim extremists. It could be happening, but I don't see it.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #5
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is something we probably agree upon. Whenever a so called Christian has committed an act of atrocity against civilians (i.e. Tim McVeigh), Christian leadership has always been quick to denounce the act. I don't see the response from Muslim leadership for the violence committed by Muslim extremists. It could be happening, but I don't see it.
    Exactly my point SC. I respect almost everyone, but I hear so much crap justifying people strapping explosives to a person and killing 120 men, women, and children who are shopping.

    I totally understand guerilla warfare, but that is used to fight an occupying force, invading force, or in a revolution. Explain to me how killing a bunch of people shopping is acceptable to any God?

    And these people do it just because you say A'llah and they say Allah.

    And when you look across the globe, you see that everywhere Islam is expanding there is this sort of bloodshed and vilence. Bali, Thailand, India, Indonesia, Europe, Africa.

    I make this statement in full knowledge of the actions over the past 2,000 years by the Catholic church and those that call themselves "Christians."

    But where is the outcry from those that speak for Islam? All I hear is crickets chirping. And the "enlightened" making excuses for the actions of blowing people up for the way they worship the same religion and shopping.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    As for whether this is the fault of Islam, Religion (in any of its forms) is the root of all evil, because it is the very creator of it. Christians can fight just as hard, the only difference is they haven't been the underdog for a few hundred years. When you're the little guy in the fight, your much more willing to fight dirty to win.
    Well, let me just stop this right now before it mutates into a sympathy parade for "the little guy" in the fight.

    First of all, there is no "little guy" in this fight. If these Islamic extremists are "little guys" then the European Jews in WWII must have been "microscopic particle men." I mean, 5 or 6 Million dead was a damn good reason to retaliate with remorseless suicide bombings, but we never really saw that from the Jews. Instead, the U.N. granted the Jews a little strip of land roughtly the size of Vancouver Island, and the Holocaust case was archived. Now the modern state of Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East, which is primarily the reason it gets so much support from the U.S.

    Islamic fanaticists want to believe that they are the persecuted ones, but they have NO IDEA what persecution is. Yet, they will continue to believe that they are fighting the good fight simply because they hear it from their leaders. This brings me to my next point:

    During the Crusades, Pope Urban II wanted Christians to take back the Holy Land (keep in mind, this was a medieval time when fighting was generally accepted as a mark of noble intention, so chopping off someone's head was a good way to get knighted by the King). Christians from all over Europe united and went down south for all the riches and knowledge that the Holy L -- Cough, I mean, to convert non-Christians. So they went into Jerusalem and slaughte -- Spread the gospel, like I said. Then they went again years later, when another Pope told them it was time; so again a smaller group than before went to the Holy Land to have, um, Bible study. Then another Pope said it was time to figh- figure out a way to bring Christianity to the region, so again, the blind enlightened masses formed and went down, only to have their arses handed to them by an Egyptian named Saladin. Then they went again, with the blessing of Pope Innocent III. And, you get the idea.

    So, who was to blame?
    A. The Popes
    B. The blind masses
    C. God
    D. Religion
    E. A with the help of B

    I believe it is primarily the fault of leaders and manipulators who prey on the weak minds of the individual. I strongly doubt that God would plant such a seed of hatred in the mind of a child at birth, so somewhere down the line, these suicide bombers are getting a dose of what the doctor didn't order. And you're right, the internet has become a recruitment tool and a sledge hammer to bash our country, which is something that makes the modern rise of extremism far more dangerous than the Crusades that occurred roughly 8 or 9 centuries ago. Yes, it is true, the Christians have a history of violence that compares with what we are seeing from Islam, but when one team drops the sword while the other team still hacks away with theirs, the Christian guilt-trip tactics lose their efficacy. The thing that I am most grateful for is that the Christian community has learned its lesson about marching to their graves under the orders of madmen pretending to be messengers of God, and massacring nameless thousands under the guise of spreading a religion of peace. The world would be a lot better off if the Middle East would catch up with the rest of the 21st century. Yet, millenniums ago, someone flicked a booger on someone else's camel, and no one wants to let go of the grudge.

    The good news: We should pay careful attention to Turkey (no, not the bird). It is probably at this time, the only predominately Muslim country embracing the fact that to become a member of a modern community (such as the EU), there must be a separation of religion and the government, and furthermore, that government must be democratic. I can almost guarantee that this will not go over well with militant Islamic leaders.

    EDIT: Given the recent crackdown of terrorist cells in Lebanon by Lebanon's own government, I'd say they would be most likely next to follow Turkey's lead, but I might just be getting my hopes up. However, I think it is a good sign that some in the Middle East are becoming less tolerant of terrorists who give Islam a bad name.
    Last edited by GodSendRain; 05-23-2007 at 09:36 AM.
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  7. #7
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Look at history-Lebanon, a Christian enclave in a predominantly muslim region who extended the olive branch to their so called muslim brethren. Only to have the entire country destroyed from with in.
    More recent-Gaza, given to the mulsims by Israel, only to have 2 factions of islamic extremists continue to exterminate themselves. How does the BS argument of being an underdog account for this?
    Yep, that sure is the religion of peace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is something we probably agree upon. Whenever a so called Christian has committed an act of atrocity against civilians (i.e. Tim McVeigh), Christian leadership has always been quick to denounce the act. I don't see the response from Muslim leadership for the violence committed by Muslim extremists. It could be happening, but I don't see it.
    You are right about that. When I heard that after 9/11, many British Muslims were celebrating the collapse of the twin towers, I was speechless. In time, I realised, that even in our own country, we'd have a few idiots (which turned out to be true, when we captured an American citizen fighting for the Taliban), and the shock lessened.

    Tim McVeigh was one of those idiots. I'd say 99% of Christians understand the value of life, and when you have photographs of a firefighter carrying a child in his arms out of a collapsed building, how can one praise such an act of violence, especially in the name of God? Is that the image one wants to create of something one worships? No thanks, I'd rather have a god of mercy and compassion.
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    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    That got the ball rolling.

    The underdog thing was as much a stick in the hornets nest as anything else. We're not supposed to talk politics or religion in the Firehouse, but it's more fun on the webernet anyway.


    My only point is that this is not really about religion, it's about a clash of cultures and political interests. The Religion may have been the catalyst for many years, but its not the primary motiviation any more. Suicide bombers don't blow themselves up for the virgins, it's for the financial security for thier families, and maybe a little of the admiration and legacy within thier community. The fact is, this conflict with the Middle East has gone on so long that the wall between the west and the east is almost insurmountable. Since you can't explain in any reasonable term why the US is the Blight of the earth, or vice versa, God is inevitably drawn into the equation. It is the only common ground that either side can use to explain the conflict without the corroberation of fact.

    The whole arguement that god is either side's motivation is a facade anyway. Certainly a few of the little guys still believe, but wars are started by the leadership, not the populous (they just get the unenviable job of the fight).

    To look at the US for example, in a country where at least half of the population does not believe the Bible should be taken literally, 99% of the countries leadership describes itself as "Devout Christian". Then they go and cheat on thier spouses, or try to pick up thier underage interns, etc... Religion is viewed by the majority of the educated as simply a social tool, or perhaps a method to access (control) the masses on the political front.

    I do honestly beleive that the ME states have more motivation to "win" this fight than the west. In the worst case for each side, we in the west will create alternative fuels, drive smaller cars, and live with a few less starbucks drinks each week as our astronomical standard of living drops a point or two. The ME will loose it's primary natural resource, it's most profitable export, and therefore it's economic, political, and social security for the distant future.

    As an "ideological young Arab", where do I sign up for the TNT?


    We would be better served to drop the BS, and fight over the real issues at hand. Autonomy, Democracy, and Economic Security. I'll fight for that.
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    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    Certainly a few of the little guys still believe, but wars are started by the leadership, not the populous (they just get the unenviable job of the fight).
    To quote Eugene Debs:

    The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class has always fought the battles.
    More true now than ever.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    there is a very good show I watched today called Hero's under fire and it was on the history channel but this episode was covering the CIA's involvement in the 1980's Afgan war vs the Russians.

    A couple of guys who worked for the CIA said that during that war, they actively supposed the Afgan Mujadeen or however you spell it BUT they also state that they did not support the arab's that were there fighting the Russians also. They said that the Afgan's Mujadeen were outnumbered by the foreign Arab fighters, including Osama Bin laden. When the war was over, the American's pulled their support for the Afgani Mujadeen and that the arab based Taliban soon took over and then Bin Laden took over.

    As a Pakistani intelligence guy said: The American's dropped the Afgan's like a hot plate.

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