1. #1
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    Default Do you think Offense or Defense first?

    I'm going to try and write this objectively as I can, but I can't promise anything.
    Scenario: I belong to a large paid fd, we have one engine(we'll call it engine 72) that responds automatic mutual aid with a 3 station city. The smaller city tones out a reported apartment fire and it is in the 1st due for engine 72. Eng 72 gets on a two story, 8 apartment complex with heavy fire on the first floor of one apartment. Eng 72 pulls a 2 inch, makes an interior attack and asks for the next company in to lay a supply line. The next company in is an engine, followed by an ariel right after it. The engine lays the line into the ariel to set up for defensive operations, knowing that a crew is inside.

    Taking what I've givin you at face value, without adding what you would do, or what should be done, here's the question.

    Does your department prepare for defensive operations before an offensive attack has been cancelled?

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    Does your department prepare for defensive operations before an offensive attack has been cancelled?
    Prepare for it....maybe. Start it, no.

    If your offensive attack is not having any effect, there is nothing wrong with preparing for defensive operations.

    If you wait to start setting up the defensive attack until after you cancel the offensive, what is happening to the fire during that time?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    What I'm looking for is what does your department do? Does your department automatically think offensive or defensive first on big fires? Not what the text books say or what you think should happen. What does your department do?

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    Offensive.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I guess I should have asked the question this way. Would you lay the line into the 1st on engine or an ariel?

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    If the first engine doesn't have a hydrant and is only working off its tank definately give water to the guys inside. Not only to fight the fire but to protect themselves if crap goes bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gallagher4663 View Post
    I'm going to try and write this objectively as I can, but I can't promise anything.
    Scenario: I belong to a large paid fd, we have one engine(we'll call it engine 72) that responds automatic mutual aid with a 3 station city. The smaller city tones out a reported apartment fire and it is in the 1st due for engine 72. Eng 72 gets on a two story, 8 apartment complex with heavy fire on the first floor of one apartment. Eng 72 pulls a 2 inch, makes an interior attack and asks for the next company in to lay a supply line. The next company in is an engine, followed by an ariel right after it. The engine lays the line into the ariel to set up for defensive operations, knowing that a crew is inside.

    Taking what I've givin you at face value, without adding what you would do, or what should be done, here's the question.

    Does your department prepare for defensive operations before an offensive attack has been cancelled?
    Technically EVERY engine is prepared for defensive operations if they are using anything over 3 inch hose for supply. If they have on their engines LDH then they are always prepared for defenseive operations.

    I apply two different methods of thinking....

    First thinking- EVERY engine should have its own hydrant. If something on that first engine breaks or goes south because of Mr Murphy, least the 2nd engine has water.

    Second thinking- If a crew is inside a structure, and a handline is stretched and in operation......then the engine pumping that line must be supplied with water, first. There should be no room for debate in this topic. Your brothers are in there on "borrowed" tank water time. Better to supply them with water then to pull them out
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallagher4663 View Post
    Eng 72 pulls a 2 inch, makes an interior attack and asks for the next company in to lay a supply line. The next company in is an engine, followed by an ariel right after it. The engine lays the line into the ariel to set up for defensive operations, knowing that a crew is inside.
    I would not say that they were wrong for preparing to go defensive, but IMO, they should have done so only after supplying the 1st engine as ordered / requested.
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    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    If you have a crew inside fighting fire (I'm assuming off the tank?), why wouldn't you lay the line into the engine? If you have to go defensive, you stretch a line or dual pump to the aerial.

    Seems to me the interior crew got left high and dry if they were using tank water. If the tank ran dry, what are they supposed to do?

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    In the scenario given, I think that not laying in to the engine was a mistake.

    Part of going defensive must include the safe withdrawal of interior crews and anyone else in close proximity (roof ops, ground ladder ops, etc.). Otherwise, preparing for defensive operations while offensive attack is ongoing is, in my way of thinking, a good idea in many circumstances.

    As for the original question, I always think offensive first, but I have no reservations about starting off defensive when the situation calls for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallagher4663 View Post
    I guess I should have asked the question this way. Would you lay the line into the 1st on engine or an ariel?
    Ok. My first engine should be laying it's own line, that's how we operate. If it doesn't, for some reason, the 2nd engine will supply the 1st engine. We will make sure the 1st engine has water before we get water to an aerial.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    if i was on the interior crew or the driver of the 1st in engine i would be furious with the second in. how is there any other option than to supply the
    1st in engine. interior crew safety is paramount and to not have a secured supply for them when they are expecting it is rediculous.
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    That's what I'm trying to figure out. Thanks everyone that has posted so far. My citys' tactic is, first engine on attacks the fire on tank water(UNLESS it is very evident that it will be a pure defensive fire). Next company in lays a supply line to the first on engine when a working fire is declared. First ariel goes in directly to the sceene for truck ops. Everyone else stages at a hydrant untill called in by command.
    Some cities want a hydrant connection to the 1st on engine before attack, some want an ariel supplied 1st, some (so i've heard) have to wait untill RIT is established. There are several ways of doing it I guess, I was just curious how the rest of the U.S. does it.

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    If you are that concerned about operating with the other city, get out of the AMA agreement if possible, but how about laying your own line? Hwoods will come on here and yell at me lol, but up here, everyone gets a hydrant. 1st, 2nd, 5th, whatever. The only time a relay is required, is when 1st due is sitting on a dead hydrant.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gallagher4663 View Post
    That's what I'm trying to figure out. Thanks everyone that has posted so far. My citys' tactic is, first engine on attacks the fire on tank water(UNLESS it is very evident that it will be a pure defensive fire). Next company in lays a supply line to the first on engine when a working fire is declared. First ariel goes in directly to the sceene for truck ops. Everyone else stages at a hydrant untill called in by command.
    Some cities want a hydrant connection to the 1st on engine before attack, some want an ariel supplied 1st, some (so i've heard) have to wait untill RIT is established. There are several ways of doing it I guess, I was just curious how the rest of the U.S. does it.
    My career department works the same way, basically. First in attacks, second in (we run quints and engines) lays the line, no matter what kind of truck it is. It's to our benefit that we have five stations to respond inside the city. There's no question as to what's going to get done.

    Perhaps it's time for the white hats to sit down and explain how things are to be done in your town to mutual/automatic aid companies?

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    Our city, let me correct myself, my department has been trying to get out of this agreement for quite some time, to no evail.

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    Offensive, and water to the first in engine, With guys inside with a 2.5 they are going to need the water or become critters. You have time to set up to go defensive later, Evac, search, extinguishment, exposures then if all goes bad, you can burn it down later, but support the attack crew. Give them water let the truck crew wait.......
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    In our little town, each engine catches it's own plug, UNLESS, there is a complex lay involved, in which case the second unit (either engine or aerial) is ordered to complete the connection for them before laying any attack or exposure lines of thier own.

    With 1000 gal pumpers being the norm these days, I am not overly concerned with making a room and contents or small house attack on tank alone. If the standpipe needs to be fed however (our community uses combined sprinkler/standpipes), water supply is a priority.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Our department always thinks offensive unless the fire conditions won't allow that. Defensive is always plan B.

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    The department that I work for thinks offensively first. Normally for us the 2nd eng lays the 1st a supply line from the hydrant unless it is otherwise stated by the first due eng. If there is a hydrant with in a 100' or 150' the first in pump operator will hand stretch his own supply line otherwise the 2nd due lays in.

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    If the hydrant is in sight and only a couple of hundred feet away, I'll usually hand jack the supply line to the hydrant with the help of the second due driver. This way the second company isn't tied up with supplying me with water. If it's longer than a couple of hundred feet, then the second due will be laying in to me. This usually isn't a problem because the second due is usually close behind the first due and our 750 gallon booster tanks go a long way.

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    We usually look offensive first. We run 4 man engines so that helps. Very few times have we ever gone defensive right off the bat. As for the hydrant either hand jack it by the driver or the 2nd in engine is usually on scene within 2 min of the first so they lay the line.
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    The department that I work for thinks offensively first. Normally for us the 2nd eng lays the 1st a supply line from the hydrant unless it is otherwise stated by the first due eng. If there is a hydrant with in a 100' or 150' the first in pump operator will hand stretch his own supply line otherwise the 2nd due lays in.
    This is how my Career Department also works. Our Crew works this way...... while I look it up in the Map Book (since I'm the Engineer) I'll look and find my hydrant, if it's close even 200' away I'll catch my own hydrant. Over the headsets I'll tell my Captain and FFs that I've got the supply. If the hydrant is pretty far say, greater than 200' I'll contact the second due and have them lay into me. 5" LDH is really heavy to carry over 200'...... LOL. I say leave up to the guys on the rig to make the call since they're the ones that are being trusted with the equipment and handle the calls.
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    Here first in engine goes from the tank only if you don't see smoke from a distance. In that case next in quint or engine lays to the initial engine. So to make it simple its going to start offensive. But some quints are placed defensive.
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