Seatbelts: Read Before you Vote

[DeputyMarshal]

This topic is intended to be about seatbelts and seatbelts only in the prevention of firefighter injuries and deaths.

It is not about any particular accident/incident and no names should be brought into the discussion. There are other threads for the discussion of particular accidents/incidents and still more that have been hijacked into threads about them. Please don't do that here.

I ask that, for the sake of this discussion, we accept certain statements as "givens":

1. Seatbelts are not the whole solution.
2. Proper EVOC training for equipment operators is part of the solution but not a part of this particular discussion.
3. Defensive Driving / Accident Avoidance SOPs are part of the solution but not a part of this particular discussion.

The question is, should all firefighters in every riding postion be required to buckle up before leaving the station for each and every emergency response?

Please support your opinion with a post and hold off on voting in the poll until you've considered others' opinions.

Most importantly, let's try to keep this a calm, professional discussion.

[MalahatTwo7]

Before y'all get huffy about this next bit, I pulled it out of the Canadian Forces Administrative Orders, because it is what members of the Armed Forces are required to follow, except under the specifided conditions of paragraph 3.

CFAO 36-6 -- VEHICLE SEAT-BELT OR SAFETY HARNESS

PURPOSE

1. This order sets out the policy governing the use of seat-belts or
safety harnesses installed in Department of National Defence (DND)
vehicles.

POLICY

2. Except as permitted under paragraph 3, all drivers, passengers and/or
crew commanders (as applicable) of DND vehicles equipped with seat-belts or
safety harnesses shall ensure that the seat-belts or safety harnesses are
adjusted properly and fastened upon entering the vehicle and that they are
worn while the vehicle is in motion.

EXCEPTIONS

3. Exceptions to this policy are permitted only under the following
circumstances:

a. During off-road operations and tactical movement (including
training), the requirement to fasten seat-belts or safety
harnesses in standard military pattern (SMP) wheeled and tracked
vehicles may be waived at the discretion of the officer in charge
conducting the training if the tactical or training situation
warrants such deviation. When this discretion is invoked, it
shall be published in all applicable unit or exercise orders.

b. Drivers of aircraft loading stairs vehicles may unfasten their
seat-belts during the time they are using the stairs control in
close proximity to an aircraft.

c. Base commanders may authorize drivers on frequent stop details,
e.g., mail delivery, security check patrols, to drive without
seat-belts being fastened while operating on base. Authorized
exemptions shall be published in Base Standing Orders.

d. Drivers may unfasten their seat-belts when operating vehicles in
reverse.

e. Drivers or passengers who hold a recent medical certificate
issued by a practising physician attesting that they should be
precluded, for medical reasons, from wearing a seat-belt may
drive or accompany the driver without seat-belts being fastened.
With respect to drivers, the practising physician shall state on
the medical certificate the applicable period that, in the
physician's opinion, proves to be adequate. However, the
physician's certificate shall be limited to a period of six
months. No medical certificate is valid six months after it has
been issued, but the certificate is subject to renewals. However,
individuals with medical conditions that permanently preclude
them from wearing seat-belts shall not drive DND vehicles.

(C) 1605-36-6 (DTM)

Issued 1994-10-21

Now that being a regulation for the military, similar words and phrases are in every drivers education manual that I've read since I learned to drive. That being said, I also have had the unfortunate experience of attending two separate funerals where in both incidents one occupant of each vehicle was killed when his jeep (for case 1) and AVGP (for case 2) while on exercise, rolled, and ejected the driver, and then continued to roll over them. The described events happened basically back-to-back between 1991 and 1992, while I was serving with LdSH(RC) in Calgary. A few months prior to my arrival at the unit in Feb 1988, there had been a similar incident in which a 2 1/2 ton truck, carrying 4 cooks in the cab failed to negotiate a turn in the road, rolled off and killed one of the occupants. The truck was only rated to carry 3 for a start and no seatbelts were worn at the time of the incident.

My last station had a specific OG related to seatbelts, and although I have not seen an actual OG with my current unit, from personal experience, the ambulance does not roll out the doors until everyone buckles in. At this time I can't speak for the Engine Geeks cuz I haven't ridden with them yet. However, I have seen both the driver and the Officer buckle up prior to hitting the apron....

[LaFireEducator]

Every call. Everyone.

No excuses about "it's only 3 blocks" or "it takes too long to unbuckle".

It's one of the areas in terms of firefighter fatalies that we control.

[Bones42]

I'm the None of the Above. Firefighters (and anyone else) should realize the benefit of wearing a seatbelt and wear it. There should be no reason to have to require it.

[Remthedays]

Drivers and front passenger always required to wear seatbelt. FF's in back on short runs (with in 1 mile of station) may decide not to. Their decission to make, however some officers require all to wear belts when leaving.

The reason they wrote it up so that it require sthe driver and front passenger to wear, was because it was apparent that the majority of accidents caused the front seat occupants to be injured worse (ejected, etc.).

T.J.

[the1141man]

Interestingly enough, I was just talking about this very subject with a good friend, who's a 20+ year police vet and currently the senior sergeant of the local PD...
I was taught in the Academy (Police, not Fire) to always wear a belt, even when responding to a call...accordingly, they also taught us a really fast and easy way to unbuckle a belt (driver side, reverse hand for the passenger side), even clearing your gunbelt and gear, which's easily as bulky and cumbersome as turnouts:
Reach across your body with your left hand, push the release button, and bring your arm up and across your body, holding the male end of the belt. This clears the belt off of you and out of your way, and allows you to exit the vehicle immediately without worry about entangling in the belt....so if you're going on-scene at a call and someone leg-bails on you, you can jump out and chase their 姧 down post-haste.

I know a lot of you guys will cause it's a cop thing, but it does work, guaranteed. Try it next time and see how it works out. I'm sure you'll be happy with the results.

[MalahatTwo7]

Actually the description you give, the1141man is an action that I commonly use, for aforementioned reasons - not because I am or ever was a cop, but because it makes sense - from an army geek perspective, of wearing webbing and S.A. weapons and other "junk". (Also because on a couple of my vehicles, the retractor on the seatbelt didnt always work very well.... )

[the1141man]

Actually the description you give, the1141man is an action that I commonly use, for aforementioned reasons - not because I am or ever was a cop, but because it makes sense - from an army geek perspective, of wearing webbing and S.A. weapons and other "junk". (Also because on a couple of my vehicles, the retractor on the seatbelt didnt always work very well.... )

Yeah, true....I didn't think about MOLLE (or whatever tactical gear you guys use in the Canadian Forces) gear, but either way, the technique works pretty much with whatever bulky crap you're wearing: duty belt, turnouts, or LBE, and lets you get out fast. Hell, in a small vehicle I can pretty much be out the door as soon as the car stops moving.

[WaterbryVTfire]

Being a operator/driver, I always ask "Everyone comfy?" Translation? Are you buckled. I don't take the parking break off until I get the "yes..".
As a driver, make your priority to make sure that everyone is safe.

(I think in some states the driver can get a ticket if not everyone is buckled??)

[KevinFFVFD]

I don’t see the big deal. It’s not like if you wear the seatbelt that it’s going to be a huge inconvenience to you. It’s just a seatbelt; if you can’t work around a seatbelt then you have other problems. It’s not that hard, I’ve done it. Just put your turnout pants and jacket on, get in the truck and buckle in. you CAN still get everything on with the seatbelt on. Once you get on scene just unbuckle, get out, and quickly adjust you SCBA or anything else. Simple.

[JHR1985]

I agree with the fact that seatbelts are benficial and should be worn when they can... but I also agree with the other side of the argument of that you cant get dressed while buckled and so on and so on.

Seatbelt are one of the MANY things that we control.

How many of us here have objects in the cab that are left loose to fly around? SCBA's, med kits, tools, camera's, and so on. They are just as important as the seat belt is. I can be buckled in all day long but when that SCBA comes loose and slaps me in the face while we are upside down skiddng along the pavement at 50 mph.... my split-second thought before it slapping me across the face most likely will be... Hmm... well at least i'm belted in

[Hazmat91180]

I think it should be in the policies of every department to require seat belts in every apparatus from the ford focus to the Truck. Then, at the very least it will catch the attention of those who actually read and the SOP's.

Furthermore, it should be inducted in training situations and people should be reprimanded if they are not following proper SOP's. This will take time, and it has to come from the TOP down.

Lastly, the very first thing you train for in FF1 class is doning your gear in less then 3 minutes, which is a VERY LONG TIME. That includes the SCBA which is laying on the floor too!

In the station you just DON your PPE <1 minute TOPS and then haul in the truck, BUCKLE IN, and start getting ready with the SCBA.. apparatus stops, unbuckle and buckle the SCBA and your out the door. (that is if you weren't able to buckle it while in a seat belt.

What I do is I look out the window and if I am able to see the scene, and the apparatus is beginning to get to where it will be staged, I'll pop off my belt and make sure I am good to go, then out the door. The majority of the accidents don't happen while on scene, it is getting there that is the issue.

[randsc]

I think it should be in the policies of every department to require seat belts in every apparatus from the ford focus to the Truck. Then, at the very least it will catch the attention of those who actually read and the SOP's.

Furthermore, it should be inducted in training situations and people should be reprimanded if they are not following proper SOP's. This will take time, and it has to come from the TOP down.

Lastly, the very first thing you train for in FF1 class is doning your gear in less then 3 minutes, which is a VERY LONG TIME. That includes the SCBA which is laying on the floor too!

In the station you just DON your PPE <1 minute TOPS and then haul in the truck, BUCKLE IN, and start getting ready with the SCBA.. apparatus stops, unbuckle and buckle the SCBA and your out the door. (that is if you weren't able to buckle it while in a seat belt.

What I do is I look out the window and if I am able to see the scene, and the apparatus is beginning to get to where it will be staged, I'll pop off my belt and make sure I am good to go, then out the door. The majority of the accidents don't happen while on scene, it is getting there that is the issue.

Where the hell did you do FF1? 3 minutes to don PPE and SCBA? That's absurd. We give 90 seconds, and only the basically worthless can't get it done.

[Hazmat91180]

Based on my location I would have thought you could have figured that one out :>)

No seriously, I agree, it is ridiculous, and I think it speaks to why people are slow getting to the apparatus in time. Hell if you go into a call thinking you have 3 minutes to don gear.

Quite honestly I don't remember anyone in my classes ever taking the full 3 minute. My group usually did it in less then a minutes or just over. Which seems to jive with the time you need before trucks roll.

[Bones42]

Side note on the getting dressed points...

Ever think it's funny that we train guys to get dressed and put the SCBA on when it's lying on the ground....and yet they almost never do that once they are past the academy. Most SCBA's (not all) are mounted in seat backs, wall brackets, etc. How many people actually lay their SCBA on the ground before donning it?

Ok, back to topic.

[Hazmat91180]

Side note on the getting dressed points...

Ever think it's funny that we train guys to get dressed and put the SCBA on when it's lying on the ground....and yet they almost never do that once they are past the academy. Most SCBA's (not all) are mounted in seat backs, wall brackets, etc. How many people actually lay their SCBA on the ground before donning it?

Ok, back to topic.

LOL, I hear ya, I said that same thing in class, WTF are we doing this for?

ok really back on topic now.

[Hazmat91180]

double post

[Remthedays]

LOL, I hear ya, I said that same thing in class, WTF are we doing this for?

ok really back on topic now.

IFSTA for FF1 - The time allowed is 1 minute each for doning Bunker gear and SCBA. In other words 2 minutes total. I am sure that is why your guys were getting it done in a minute or less.

T.J.

[FlyingKiwi]

I didn't think about MOLLE

They call it MOOSE.

[DeputyMarshal]

How many of us here have objects in the cab that are left loose to fly around?

Off-topic. This thread is intended to be narrowly focused on seatbelt use -- nothing else.

I agree that securing loose objects in the cab is a factor but it's not the factor we're discussing.

Please stay on-topic, everyone.