1. #1
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    Default Possible Grant Conflict - Need Clarification!?!?!

    I wrote our AFG grant this year for a new pumper/tanker. We do not currently have a tanker of any form or fashion in service. 2 weeks ago, we had major motor troubles in our first out engine. Upon further investigation, we found that it had blown the motor and was totally unrebuildable. Its an 85FMC, and by the time we get a new motor put in, and fix other problems with it, we're basically polishing a turd.

    My conflict is, I've found several tankers that are in our department's price range. BUT, in our grant narrative and application I specifically noted that we DID NOT have a tanker of any form or fashion.

    If we were to purchase a tanker now, and we were lucky enough to be awarded a grant, will this be a conflict?!?!? If they were to come audit and see another tanker sitting in our station, will they consider it fraud and take away our new tanker? Or will receipts showing that it was purchased after the grant application be sufficient????

    Clarification needed as soon as possible! Thanks in advance!

    Matt Green
    Fire Chief
    West Bryan County Fire Rescue
    chief@wbcfirerescue.com
    http://www.wbcfirerescue.com
    Cell - (580)916-0394
    Fax - (580)920-1068
    Station - (580)920-2808

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    The only correct answer is to contact your fire grants specialist at
    FEMA.

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    I agree that a call to the FPS folks is in order, I would also say this....

    At the time you submitted the grant, did you know the engine was going to crap out; not very likely so you are not attempting to decieve the feds.

    I would keep extensive records of when the thing broke, copies of estimates, and logs of when it broke, when you found out it was not repairable, if there was action taken by your local governing body etc.

    I would also keep detailed records of your conversations with the FPS and any subsequent folks on up the chain.

    this is simply to make sure you pass the Red face test, and you have many fingerprints on the project.

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    Default Replacing a pumper with at tanker

    From what i understand your pumper is out of service...correct?
    Now you are wanting to replace it with a tanker?...something don't make sense....
    FEMA will take a look at that...no expert..but think about the obvious.

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    A little clarification to your questions firegod101:

    Upon application for our pumper/tanker grant, our Department had in service a 1989 Pierce Engine that is run as primary rescue/quick attack on structure fires, with 500 gallons of water. Our second engine was a 1985 FMC w/ 1000 Gallons of water. Combined the two together rolling out at the same time and we hit a fire with 1500 gallons of water and 3400' of 2.5" supply hose, as well as a crew of 8, and things worked great.

    Several weeks ago, enroute to a structure fire, the engine blew in the 1985 FMC (threw a rod through the block). Estimated costs from all local mechanics to fix the damage as well as other issues with the truck are between $12,000 to $15,000.00. I have found several used tankers in that price range, as well as some used engines that are close to that range.

    The same theory goes true with running the 89 Pierce first out with 500 gallons, and a 3000 gallon tanker right behind it, with the exception that we pull up to a working fire with 3500 gallons of water.

    The Department is in a very rural setting, 110 square mile district with approximately 43 hydrants total. We also cover another 100 square miles automatic aid. No Department near us has a tanker, our wait for a tanker is 20-25 minutes at the best of times, 40-45 minutes at other times.

    Do you understand now?

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    Definitely contact the FPS for your area with the situation, but if you bought a used engine to replace what you had I don't see a conflict or attempt to deceive. Personally and from a grant guideline perspective. It's not like it was dead before the app, things happen in the (long) time span between app and notification of it's outcome. Emergency purchases are allowed, and since you are down to 1 truck with 500g of water I'd say that qualifies as an emergency purchase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Definitely contact the FPS for your area with the situation, but if you bought a used engine to replace what you had I don't see a conflict or attempt to deceive. Personally and from a grant guideline perspective. It's not like it was dead before the app, things happen in the (long) time span between app and notification of it's outcome. Emergency purchases are allowed, and since you are down to 1 truck with 500g of water I'd say that qualifies as an emergency purchase.
    Just to go along with what he said. If your only going to come up with about 10,000 to 15,000 to purchase a truck I dont see a problem. But when you start comming up with 150,000 to purchase a truck thats a problem. This is because the biggest part of your grant you should have stated that your department did not have the money to replace this tanker. If you replace one just make sure you can account for where the money came from. In your grant you should have listed budget issues. Where is the money comming from you are going to use. Did you list this money on your grant. Is this money comming from some type of emergency fund. Are you still going to be able to provide a match if you spend this money. Is this part of the money you listed that you would provide a match with. Have all your ducks in a row prior to contacting FPS as these could be potential questions asked about your situation. As long as you were accurate on your grant paperwork you should not have a problem.

    Another thing to look at before you call. The truck you are looking at will it change the average age of your fleet. How much newer model will it be than the one you currently have.

    Just some of my thoughts!
    Stay safe and Watch out for your fellow brother.

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    Average age won't matter in the fleet because the app is done, that will only affect next year's application if unsuccessful this year. What happens after the app doesn't mean anything, that's why you can't go back for more PPE if you get some recruits. Only thing with truck apps is if it was ordered or being ordered at the time of application, which is not the case here.

    Definitely agree with the financial statement about how you're buying the 'new' truck, but judging by their location description and stats I doubt they're dropping $150k in the bank for the replacement. $15k, more feasible. And if they're taking out a loan that puts PPE/SCBA projects in jeopardy then that would be a good case on why it wasn't done beforehand.

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    Might also take a look at a 1yr rent/lease of a used truck thru one of the used apparatus dealers. Make sure you get a credit of at least some of the payments a purchase option.

    Emergency situation USDA Rural Dev may be able to help you out. The state and National Offices keep some $ laying around for such problems. How much depends on the need and your income stats.

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    I think everyone's suggestion to call FEMA for guidance is the best idea. My cocnern about not telling them all is that even though the situation changed after the application was filed...If you now have something defined as a tanker and you did not when the aplication was filed...Answering the 10 questions, should you be awarded, may include some stretching of the truth.
    BB

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    This may sound stupid, but I do not believe that you could apply for a "pumper/tanker" in the grant this year. When you chose what you were applying for in the app, your choice was either for a "pumper" or a "tanker". This is were we got into our big discussion in the other posts. If the used units that you are looking at have a pump bigger than 749 gpm, they are considering this a pumper no matter how big the tank is. This is how I am reading it, not saying that I agree with it. If you put in your app for a tanker and then go out and buy a unit with a pump less than 750 gpm and a tank larger than 1000 gal (correct me if I am wrong), then I can see where your problems will be. I agree with the others, to give the big guys a call and see what they suggest.

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    No, you're correct there was no pumper-tanker category, but I think we all just blew by that. At least I did, doesn't matter what kind of truck they applied for but it shouldn't be a problem if they just replace what died with something similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    No, you're correct there was no pumper-tanker category, but I think we all just blew by that. At least I did, doesn't matter what kind of truck they applied for but it shouldn't be a problem if they just replace what died with something similar.
    That is exactly what I was trying to say. After watching all of these presidential candidate debates, I have a hard time getting to the point.

    Kelly (Have you ever read your posts a couple days after placing them and think to yourself how stupid you really sounded????) I just pulled an earl!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman View Post
    That is exactly what I was trying to say. After watching all of these presidential candidate debates, I have a hard time getting to the point.

    Kelly (Have you ever read your posts a couple days after placing them and think to yourself how stupid you really sounded????) I just pulled an earl!!!!!
    Ametuers!! I can read a post immediately after i hit submit and have it sound stupid. Then i make it worse on edit.

    earl (instantly stupid )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenacres2 View Post
    Ametuers!! I can read a post immediately after i hit submit and have it sound stupid. Then i make it worse on edit.

    earl (instantly stupid )
    Someone needs ot come up with a "doofus" emoticon; I think I would use it on myself constantly!LOL!
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Ooh...Doofus is a good word. I fit that one. I usually use the pink sick-looking mutant desert guy for my Doofus. And he looks like me after an hour in the sun--at least in the summer.

    earl (keep my tongue in my mouth in the winter)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktb9780 View Post
    Someone needs ot come up with a "doofus" emoticon; I think I would use it on myself constantly!LOL!
    Would this doofus emoticon be representative of the two guys in these posts that worked really hard to pull off your seminars, or would it be of the fair weather person driving through the wintery conditions to help us out because his flights were cancelled??? Sorry, just had to ask that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman View Post
    Would this doofus emoticon be representative of the two guys in these posts that worked really hard to pull off your seminars, or would it be of the fair weather person driving through the wintery conditions to help us out because his flights were cancelled??? Sorry, just had to ask that one.
    Mea culpa, Kelly. " Doofus" was the word I kept using on myself while driving through the blinding snow, through the middle of Pittsburgh, in the middle of the night, crossing mountain passes behind snowplows and all the while asking myself " Why was a fair weather guy from Florida risking life and limb to do this?" My answer was " Doofus, look in the rearview mirror"! LOL!
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    All of the comments are very good and yes it is strongly suggested you check with FPS, but.......


    If they sau it could be a problem with the Grant process and/or award (which I hope you get) you need to be sure that your first and foremaost duty is to ensure the best coverage and aid for your district as possible. You can not be basing a protection decision on the possibility on what you might get from FPS. I know I am probably going to get hammered on this comment but I believe you can not plan on what you might have in the future to what you know you need right now.

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