1. #1
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    Default Proposed NFPA 1001 changes for 2007

    It is my understanding that there is a proposed change for the 2007 edition of NFPA 1001 to make HazMat Operation Level a prerequisite for FF1.

    I was just wondering wat other opinions on this were, and how it might positively or negatively affect a small rural vollie department.

    Personally, we do not work HazMat, so Ops is hard for me to deem necessary. I could be wrong, and elcome any input as to what benefit a small, and I mean small, department would gain over awareness level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWLAFireDawg View Post
    It is my understanding that there is a proposed change for the 2007 edition of NFPA 1001 to make HazMat Operation Level a prerequisite for FF1.

    I was just wondering wat other opinions on this were, and how it might positively or negatively affect a small rural vollie department.

    Personally, we do not work HazMat, so Ops is hard for me to deem necessary. I could be wrong, and elcome any input as to what benefit a small, and I mean small, department would gain over awareness level.
    I'm not a big fan of Hazmat but I do have my tech and I feel it's a good thing. (even though you don't think so) Look at all the stuff that travels through our areas (even your small little depts area also) You never know what or when something will ever happen. Does your county have a team? You could have to assist in setting up a decon area or what not know what I mean? And if anything yes I know the classes are boring but hopefully it gets people thinking this is some pretty bad stuff and atleast make them think it's probablly not a good idea to be engaging ot operating in a incident of ehich is a hazmat situation. See where I'm coming from?

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    I too am Tech level, but only for the Refinery I work for. I don't care to do the certifications for the municipal side since I would "never" use it. I wholeheartedly agree that familiarity with HazMat is necessary, but that is obtained in Awareness level training. Our state police are usually called in to handle HazMat, or a local refinery or chemical plant HazMat team on mutual aid.

    I guess I am really thinking of the training side. We ave a hard enough time just getting the EMT:First Responder class done, so if we add another 40 hour class to the lst, we might not ever get our people FF1 certified. Not everybody can take off a week from work to go through Ops training, and the department cannot afford to pay for the lost wages if they do.

    I know this is the same old argument of how small vollie departments can't keep members and meet training requirements. But for us, it is true......

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    I was under the impression that it was already required. I just completed the test for my FF1 class in April. When we took the class and test we were also taught and given the test for Hazmat Opps.

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    Mississippi Fire Academy is already doing this.

    (This is quoted right out of the course catelog for the Firefighter 1001 1&2 class from the Mississippi State Fire Academy)

    "Hazardous Materials for First Responders will be presented during the six week class and averaged in as one test grade for the overall average of the student grade. It is required that the student succesfully complete (70% or greater) to recieve an additional 32 credit hours. The hazardous materials delivery is designed to meet or exceed the NFPA Hazerdous Materials First Responder: Operational Level and is accredited by the International Fire Service Accredidation Congress. Students are required to provide protective clothing which meets NFPA standards. Night classes will be conducted and weekend assignments may be issued"

    http://www.doi.state.ms.us/fireacad/cpg13.jpg

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    Default SC Academy

    Here is SC our prerequistite for FF1 is Hazmat Ops and CPR/First Aid, For FF2 when then need Auto Extrication and Flamable Liquids and Gases.

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    Hazmat Awareness (somethings not right - get the orange book) and Hazmat Operations (open the orange book and call a hazmat team) are already part of the NJ FF1 program.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWLAFireDawg View Post
    I too am Tech level, but only for the Refinery I work for. I don't care to do the certifications for the municipal side since I would "never" use it. I wholeheartedly agree that familiarity with HazMat is necessary, but that is obtained in Awareness level training. Our state police are usually called in to handle HazMat, or a local refinery or chemical plant HazMat team on mutual aid.

    I guess I am really thinking of the training side. We ave a hard enough time just getting the EMT:First Responder class done, so if we add another 40 hour class to the lst, we might not ever get our people FF1 certified. Not everybody can take off a week from work to go through Ops training, and the department cannot afford to pay for the lost wages if they do.

    I know this is the same old argument of how small vollie departments can't keep members and meet training requirements. But for us, it is true......
    You say you'll never use it but yet you also say they might call in a refinery hazmat team for mutual aid.? I'm just yanking your chain... Why cant the class be done on a weekend or something? I hope your fd can work this out.

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    This really shouldn't affect Missouri. We do FF I and II together, and FF II already required Ops. Personally, I think it's a good thing, especially in this day and age.

    I'm curious why you say it's a 40 hr. class? Last I knew (and it's been a while) it was only about half that.

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    Kep in mind, this all per a discussion with the LSU Testing and certification center for Louisiana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWLAFireDawg View Post
    Kep in mind, this all per a discussion with the LSU Testing and certification center for Louisiana.
    I wondered after I typed that if maybe it's a state thing. Our Technician is only 40 hours while most are 80 now (which they're supposed to be changing).

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    Already part of New Hampshire's FF1.

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    Cool

    It's definitely a good thing to know. Realistically, you could be called to assist at a HAZMAT incident in another jurisdiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hazmat Awareness (somethings not right - get the orange book) and Hazmat Operations (open the orange book and call a hazmat team) are already part of the NJ FF1 program.
    your exactly right...say you have a car fire with diesel leakage into a local stream, the most you can do is put some big giant tampons in the water...... the EPA takes care of most of the Haz-mat crap in our area..and they're pretty strict about nobody doing anything before they get there. i dont feel HM should be required before FF1 but thats just me...thats what the orange book is for.

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    Here in PA you only need Awarenes to take FF!, but FF2 and all the other certifications require Haz-Mat Operations.

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    Even if its a 40 hour course, you can't commit to a weekend a month, and 2 or 3 worknights a month? Weekends can count for 16 hours, plus 4 hours a week. Won't your instructors work with you on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hazmat Awareness (somethings not right - get the orange book) and Hazmat Operations (open the orange book and call a hazmat team) are already part of the NJ FF1 program.

    This should give the rest of the country reason to take pause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quint1officer View Post
    Even if its a 40 hour course, you can't commit to a weekend a month, and 2 or 3 worknights a month? Weekends can count for 16 hours, plus 4 hours a week. Won't your instructors work with you on that?
    It's more of a departmental issue I believe as opposed to the instructor issue. Without getting into our training problems, lets say it would be difficult at best.

    The question is this.....just because we can....does it mean we should? Should we raise the prerequisite level across the board? Does it fit for every dept? I believe in one standard, but issues like this aren't necessarily "fire" department. We don't do Hazmat........

    Like I said, this was just to spur some good discussion, and some good thoughts have been expressed.

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    Wrong forum, my err.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 06-01-2007 at 07:27 PM.

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    Post It's about time

    I'm glad to hear that the NFPA is thinking about adding Haz Mat Ops to their FF1 standards. There are those of you that think that this might be too much Haz Mat, but remember, Operations is for defensive operations and not mitigation of the incident.
    Is there any one that can honestly tell me that you don't have some type of hazardous material travelling through your area by road, rail, plane or boat? Do you have homes or farms or businesses in your area? There is always the risk of finding some type of hazardous material. If you are so rural that the animals out number the people, do you have meth labs in your area?
    New York State's FF1 course includes Haz Mat Ops. In my department, if you take the NYS basic training course for non-interior firefighters, Scene Support Operations, you are also required to take Haz Mat Ops. That is just a department requirement only.
    "Your spill is our thrill."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Hazmat Awareness (somethings not right - get the orange book) and Hazmat Operations (open the orange book and call a hazmat team) are already part of the NJ FF1 program.
    amazing NJ, actually did something ahead of the curve.

    now if we can only make the hazmat awareness and operations taught in NJ to meet the same requirements as the NFPA (instead of the NJSP), we can be a shining example for the rest of the country.

    imagine that, NJ leading the nation in how to do something, instead of being 20 years behind.....
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdcook View Post
    I'm glad to hear that the NFPA is thinking about adding Haz Mat Ops to their FF1 standards. There are those of you that think that this might be too much Haz Mat, but remember, Operations is for defensive operations and not mitigation of the incident.
    Is there any one that can honestly tell me that you don't have some type of hazardous material travelling through your area by road, rail, plane or boat? Do you have homes or farms or businesses in your area? There is always the risk of finding some type of hazardous material. If you are so rural that the animals out number the people, do you have meth labs in your area?
    New York State's FF1 course includes Haz Mat Ops. In my department, if you take the NYS basic training course for non-interior firefighters, Scene Support Operations, you are also required to take Haz Mat Ops. That is just a department requirement only.
    Good points......I believe our state fire academy has HazMat Ops included, but you also leave with FF2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    amazing NJ, actually did something ahead of the curve.

    now if we can only make the hazmat awareness and operations taught in NJ to meet the same requirements as the NFPA (instead of the NJSP), we can be a shining example for the rest of the country.

    imagine that, NJ leading the nation in how to do something, instead of being 20 years behind.....
    That will only happen when the NJ government realizes that the NJSP is not the be-all and end-all of the emergency services. It's been happening for at least the 30 years I have been involved in the fire service (they used to be involved in teaching about chlorine emergencies, for example). I see no sign of it changing anytime soon. (I don't want to hijack this thread).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    That will only happen when the NJ government realizes that the NJSP is not the be-all and end-all of the emergency services. It's been happening for at least the 30 years I have been involved in the fire service (they used to be involved in teaching about chlorine emergencies, for example). I see no sign of it changing anytime soon. (I don't want to hijack this thread).
    Hijack away! Sometimes a better discussion evolves out of a lesser discussion.

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    now if we can only make the hazmat awareness and operations taught in NJ to meet the same requirements as the NFPA (instead of the NJSP), we can be a shining example for the rest of the country.
    It's NJ. Best part of all, the hazmat sections of the Delmar manuals that NJ uses, are not what's used by the NJSP to teach that section. And not too many academies teach the hazmat sections themselves, they let NJSP come in and teach it because "they are more qualified". So students get taught the NJSP way, and then tested on the Delmar way.

    It's NJ.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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