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  1. #1
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    Default Disillusioned and defeated

    I am a conservative. You all know that. But for some time now, I have felt defeated by the Bush administration. The immigration issue was the knockdown punch. They counted me out with yesterday's lecture that, somehow, I am a bigot and unintelligent because I will not support this plan that will serve to economically cripple this country.

    I write well, but Peggy Noonan is better. This about says it all for me.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/

    I will not speak out against this administration, but you will not find me fighting with people to support it anymore, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I am a conservative. You all know that. But for some time now, I have felt defeated by the Bush administration. The immigration issue was the knockdown punch. They counted me out with yesterday's lecture that, somehow, I am a bigot and unintelligent because I will not support this plan that will serve to economically cripple this country.

    I write well, but Peggy Noonan is better. This about says it all for me.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/

    I will not speak out against this administration, but you will not find me fighting with people to support it anymore, either.
    Well I have to agree. At first look this bill looked like the best the congress coudl do. If this is their best then we need some serious housecleaning in DC. Why Bush thinks this immigration bill is so good is beyond my scope of comprehension. I applaud you George for being able to stand up and say I really don't believe I can defend this president anymore. It's too bad the liberlas of past couldn't do the same for the Pied Piper Clinton. From what I have seen over the last few years Bush and Clinton are about the same. It's really sad. And once again, the Democrats and the Republicans are going to give us poor choices in Novemeber. I wish they would just eliminate the primaries and put all of the candidates on the ballot. Let all of the American people choose. Then again, 90% can't even tell you where their favorite candidate stands on the issues, let alone their rival. We have a stupid voting public who thinks all they need to do is pull the lover to vote. It is really refreshing to hear someone actually talk intelligentlly about the candidates and thier views, But those people are 1 in 100.

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    I really don't understand our president. When his political opponents are throwing crap at him, we keep wondering when he will shoot back to defend his actions. Many examples can be given of dirty politics from his opponents, and most of those instances could have been corrected by coming back hard at them with facts and the truth, letting them know he isn't going to take this sort of childish behavior. ( As most political moves are childish )

    You can leak the secret plans of the war on terror to the New York Times, and he doesn't direct the Attorney General to go after those whose actions undermine our security.

    But no, we have not heard much in the way of him targeting his opponents.

    Now we ( his supporters ) are the target of scorn and ridicule because we don't think this immigration bill does what we think needs to be done. No dirty tricks or political moves, we just don't agree.

    Is this the thanks we get for all of our past support?

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    Is this the thanks we get for all of our past support?
    That, and corporate fatcats and the wealthy can still get cheap maid service and yard care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I will not speak out against this administration, but you will not find me fighting with people to support it anymore, either.
    Welcome to the club. I've felt this way since the unnecessary invasion of Iraq. If you aren't willing to speak out against the administration what is your point? What is the old line? Something like, "evil prospers when good men stand silent."

    Here's another one for you. It seems Cheney doesn't want us to know whose meeting with him. This is absolutely hysterical to we libs who were shocked there was no outrage when Ken Starr called Clinton's Secret Service detail into testify. While conservatives cheered.

    White House Follows New Path to Secrecy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    From what I have seen over the last few years Bush and Clinton are about the same.
    Huh??? Sleeping with an intern and lying about it as bad as starting a war and lying about it? I dont claim to know everything, but Im pretty sure one doesnt kill people.

    Clinton was wrong in what he did, but nobody died. Comparing the two is also wrong, and, IMHO, lessons the sacrifice of our brave men & women.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 06-02-2007 at 01:43 PM.
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    This is not a thread about Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton has no place in this debate. None. I'm tired of all the idiots who keep blaming him for everything that happens. Yes, he is a despicable human being. Yes, he brought shame and scorn to his office and this country. BUT HE IS NOT THE FRIGGIN' PRESIDENT ANYMORE. YOU CAN'T BLAME HIM ANYMORE. This thread is about the number of disillusioned conservatives. A group that gets larger every day.,

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    Republicans today are nothing like Republicans fifty years ago, that's certain.

    Edit: On second thought, I think that applies to politics in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This is not a thread about Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton has no place in this debate. None. I'm tired of all the idiots who keep blaming him for everything that happens. Yes, he is a despicable human being. Yes, he brought shame and scorn to his office and this country. BUT HE IS NOT THE FRIGGIN' PRESIDENT ANYMORE. YOU CAN'T BLAME HIM ANYMORE. This thread is about the number of disillusioned conservatives. A group that gets larger every day.,

    Sorry that I played a hand in that. I should have ignored him. But I too am tired of everything being a particular ex-presidents fault.

    But Im with you as far as being disillusioned with the GOP. However, mine started well before either Bush was elected, back to the point the party sold its soul to the Moral Majority.
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    I wonder if the Rove right wing hate machine will come after Noonan the same way they have gone after others that have turned on Bush. Richard Clarke being a prime example.

    I have to shake my head on the rationality of the people who are close to Bush Administration when they write Op Ed pieces like this. The denial is almost like watching a train wreck. You know it's going to be ugly, but you can't turn away.

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    Last edited by scfire86; 06-02-2007 at 07:27 PM.
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    I think there ought to be a limit to the number of wars a president can fight during his tour in office. I mean, we didn't finish Afghanistan before we went to Iraq, and I fear that we wouldn't finish Iraq before we go to Iran.

    If it becomes necessary to elect a democratic president in order to stop Iran from developing nuclear arms (because I feel that if a Republican tries to do anything productive at this point, the credibility hit that the party has suffered will deny him any backing form the public), then I'd support a democratic president. I don't care who gets to brag about stopping the nuclear threat, democratic or republican, I just want the threat stopped. The only problem is, I don't see too many Democratic candidates who are tough enough for my liking. Hillary, like it or not, is probably the most hawkish of the bunch, and would probably be my pick if I were to swing my vote in 2008.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodSendRain View Post
    I think there ought to be a limit to the number of wars a president can fight during his tour in office. I mean, we didn't finish Afghanistan before we went to Iraq, and I fear that we wouldn't finish Iraq before we go to Iran.
    Small problem, the US hasn't been in a "war" since 1945. We've tossed around a lot of "war" rhetoric since then but the fact remains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodSendRain View Post
    Republicans today are nothing like Republicans fifty years ago, that's certain.

    No, and that's a damn shame. BOTH parties have a problem in that the "Fringe" keeps getting farther out. An extreme right (or left) Position fifty years ago would seem quite moderate today.
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    When I graduatedd from High School back in 1971, my political view was extremely liberal. As I started working and putting myself through college, liberalism wore off to reveal a moderate stance. Who knows, by the time I am old and gray, I may even become conservative

    There are good points on both sides of the politcal spectrum, but the lunatic fringe of both sides insist on ramming their agendas down the throats (or up the arse, depending on your point of view) of John and Jane Q. Public, who are getting royally ****ed off!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    When I graduatedd from High School back in 1971, my political view was extremely liberal. As I started working and putting myself through college, liberalism wore off to reveal a moderate stance. Who knows, by the time I am old and gray, I may even become conservative

    There are good points on both sides of the politcal spectrum, but the lunatic fringe of both sides insist on ramming their agendas down the throats (or up the arse, depending on your point of view) of John and Jane Q. Public, who are getting royally ****ed off!
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    What we need is a MAJOR third party, one with enough power to compete in an election, to represent those of us in the center. I just dont see it happening.

    As for the candidates, its looking more and more like Hillary will be my pick, as hard as that is to say. That is, unless McCain can win the GOP. Hes put himself in the center on a lot of issues.

    I had hope for Rudy G, until he said he supported the governments involvement in the Terry Schivo case (remember that mess?) while on a stop here in my county a month or so ago. He lost my vote, forever.
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    When I first saw this thread title, I misread it and thought is said "Delusional and defeated" and thought it referred to the martyr of the aerial apparatus salesmen. Boy, was I wrong.

    George...are you saying that you haven't left the Republican Party, the Republican Party has left you?

    Seriously, though...this is why I don't align myself with a particular party. I go by candidate...best person for the job, etc. However, it only appears I've become "more conservative" than the Republican party as I've grown older.

    The problem with a "3rd party" is that so many people have closed their mind (or been brainwashed) by the "2 party system" rhetoric, and the requirements I've seen to even get a 3rd party candidate on the ballot! Talk about jumping through hoops.

    Eh...enough rambling for a Sunday afternoon. There's a NASCAR race on somewhere.

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    Constitution Party. Its not perfect, but its Olde School Republican, to a degree. Both parties are a stinkfest now, they're both going to screw us, its just a matter of how.

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    What we need is a MAJOR third party, one with enough power to compete in an election, to represent those of us in the center. I just dont see it happening.
    The trouble is, there IS no center...not when a handful of highly emotional issues instantly plaster you as either far right, or far left. For instance, abortion. For it? You're a left wing, baby murdering kook. Against it? You're a right wing, clinic bombing nutjob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    The trouble is, there IS no center...not when a handful of highly emotional issues instantly plaster you as either far right, or far left. For instance, abortion. For it? You're a left wing, baby murdering kook. Against it? You're a right wing, clinic bombing nutjob.

    Good point. And like I said, I dont see it anyway. I guess there will never be a place for folks like me who support issues from both sides. I support protecting the environment (lib). I support capital punishment (con). I support a womans right to choose (lib) and I support a strong national defense (con).

    Guess Im SOL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Good point. And like I said, I dont see it anyway. I guess there will never be a place for folks like me who support issues from both sides. I support protecting the environment (lib). I support capital punishment (con). I support a womans right to choose (lib) and I support a strong national defense (con).

    Guess Im SOL.
    Same here. I'm against gun control with the exception of assault rifles.
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    Same here. I'm against gun control with the exception of assault rifles.
    Me, too. Except flamethrowers...no flamethrowers allowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    The trouble is, there IS no center...not when a handful of highly emotional issues instantly plaster you as either far right, or far left. For instance, abortion. For it? You're a left wing, baby murdering kook. Against it? You're a right wing, clinic bombing nutjob.
    The central, 3rd party would say, "No more having babies. Adopt stray dogs."
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    Try here on for size...

    http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html


    I'll bet about 90%of us here would land in the Libertarian realm. Yeah there is the crazy legalize all drugs side to the party, but it is no worst than the tree-huggers and bible thumpers.

    Some one earlier said that the Republican party of today is not the same as it was forty years ago, they are not the same party they were 20 years ago. The same is true for the Democratic party. A traditional Southern Democrat, gun carrying, flag waving, NASCAR watching, beer drinking good ole boy has nothing in common with the Left Coast Democrat.

    The only way a third party is to have a chance is for the general concerned population to step up and make their voices heard. To make the current parties hear our voice, stop sending the money.

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    George, I have been in this place now since shortly after the last election. Welcome to the frustration.

    A new major middle party is needed, because both of the current parties have been hijacked by the extremes of their systems, those who are the loudest and fanatical. I have been trying to think up a good name for it for a while. A party that supports the traditional family model of marriage (as opposed to actively fighting it as if it were a bad thing), is pro-life, pro-environment, pro-social justice, you'd have a slam dunk.

    If the Democrats would only become pro-life and stopped championing every kookball cause, tried to remember when the represented the average joe farmer and laborer, the Republicans would become an historical footnote in less than a generation. They would no longer be one of two evils, they would become the FAR lesser of two evils.

    Just my opinion. Yeah we all know what it's worth. And yeah, there's a lot of them around....
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    A traditional Southern Democrat, gun carrying, flag waving, NASCAR watching, beer drinking good ole boy has nothing in common with the Left Coast Democrat.
    Man, you nailed that! Most of the good ole boy types you mentioned have been voting GOP. 20-30 years ago you would have never seen Tobi Keith and all these other big name country music stars backing Republicans.

    Both parties have abandoned their base. In the most basic terms, Dems used to be for the working man, Reps were for the rich folks.

    How times have changed...

    BTW, I like Constitution Party for a name. A party based on the document, not one that twists it for their purpose.

    What a concept.
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