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  1. #1
    Forum Member martinm's Avatar
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    Default Guns are dangerous. Everyones knows that. Dont't they??


    A police worker was accidentally shot by a gun specialist during a lecture on firearms awareness at the Thames Valley force’s headquarters.

    The wounded man, who is in his fifties, was reported to be in a serious but stable condition yesterday in the John Radcliffe hospital, Oxford, after surgery for a wound to his abdomen.

    The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now examine how a 9mm Glock pistol came to have a live round, why the safety catch was not on, and whether the officer checked the status of the gun before the lesson.

    Eleven call operators were attending the session in Kidlington, Oxford, on Wednesday when the gun went off as the officer – a member of the force’s tactical firearms unit – was demonstrating how it worked.

    “A shot ran out and one of the class was shot in the stomach from fairly close range,” a police source said. “There was a lot of blood and pandemonium broke out. Someone put in a 999 call from their mobile phone and two ambulances rushed to the police headquarters,” the source said.

    One police source said the firearms officer had been suspended from duties during the investigation. He could face a disciplinary hearing in front of the deputy chief constable or possibly charges.

    The source said: “The question uppermost in everyone’s mind is why on earth the gun was loaded when it was being used as during a demonstration in a classroom.”

    On a lighter not, seeing as the poor communications operator is on the mend. I've assured my team of operators this is'nt a management ploy to weed out under performers and increase productivity amongst the others!! On the other hand though.....
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  2. #2
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    Cleared the chamber then dropped the mag.
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  3. #3
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    it's not the guns that are dangerous it's the people who use them!!!!

  4. #4
    Forum Member RyanEMVFD's Avatar
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    For starters, Glocks don't have safety latches. The safety is in the trigger mechanism.
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  5. #5
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinm View Post
    The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now examine how a 9mm Glock pistol came to have a live round, why the safety catch was not on, and whether the officer checked the status of the gun before the lesson.
    What safety?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    OK. I dont know bugger all about Glocks besides they are one of the best build weapons around (supposedly - only because I have never used one)...

    So the question comes: how can you build a safety mechanism into the trigger assembly? Seems a bit self-defeating.

    Otherwise, regarding the story, I have to agree with some of the others; apparently the instructor did not properly "clear" the weapon before class started.
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  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Rick, the Glocks have a fin in the trigger that requires your finger to fully wrapped around and pulling inline pressure, (i.e. while the hanguard is squeezed from behind by your palm) before the trigger mech will release.

    It is intended to be a fumble proof safety, that doesn't interfere with tactical ops, while providing the same type of standard "safety" during general handling and storage. The double action mechanism of a Glock means they cannot be "Cocked", and therefore an accidental discharge from dropping or jarring is supposedly impossible.

    I have heard of very few problems with it, but there is always a chance. I think the bigger issue here is clearing the weapon BEFORE the class, or using a dummy weapon (a better choice with kids).

    There is a good video out there of a US Police Officer (DEA) doing the EXACT same thing in a grade school classroom with a Glock 40. He actually shot himself in the foot. See it here:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU

    Glock does now have an optional secondary safety that uses a key to lock out all function, but that is not practicle for ops or demo use. There are all kinds of custom holster for law enforcement use that are intended to further increase the safety of the Glocks as well.
    Last edited by mcaldwell; 06-03-2007 at 04:05 PM. Reason: Added video link
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  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    Rick, the Glocks have a fin in the trigger that requires your finger to fully wrapped around and pulling inline pressure, (i.e. while the hanguard is squeezed from behind by your palm) before the trigger mech will release.

    It is intended to be a fumble proof safety, that doesn't interfere with tactical ops, while providing the same type of standard "safety" during general handling and storage.

    I have heard of very few problems with it, but there is always a chance. I think the bigger issue here is clearing the weapon BEFORE the class, or using a dummy weapon (a better choice with kids).
    Here's an experiment that I can't say is too smart but is very informative:

    Take an unloaded (please, no repeat of these incidents) Glock, stick a pencil or some other type of relatively strong rod between the trigger and front guard and shake it a few times.

    That snap you hear should answer beyond any doubt just how well a Glock 'safety' works. It only exists so Glock can say "sure, we got a safety" when somebody's bid spec requires it.

    They're nice weapons but like most all high performance machines they can bite you in a hurry.

    I'll stick with my Ruger, I know when it is hot.

    As far as these incidents go, I have little sympathy for the triggermen. These folks are professionals trained in the safe handling of weapons. They should know better, they just get careless with a tool that can kill. How hard is it to rack the slide and visually guarantee the chamber is clear after ejecting the magazine? When I'm cleaning mine I do it several times 'cause all the gunshot wounds I've answered look like they really hurt!

  9. #9
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    So much for basic weaponship, eh?
    1. All weapons are always treated hot.
    2. Don't cover anything you're not willing to put a bullet through.
    3. Know your target and whats beyond.

    Id say the limey failed at least 2 of those rules.

    And can someone tell me where the safety is on my ruger revolver?

  10. #10
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quint1officer View Post
    And can someone tell me where the safety is on my ruger revolver?
    Which model?
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  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Thanks Marty, I kinda figured it might be something along that order but tis always good to ask the "silly question" early. However, I agree with everyone else here. A weapon is loaded until I say/see it for myself. The army taught me to clear the weapon upon receiving it into my hot li'l hands, and to clear it before handing it over to anyone else. I find I even do this drill with my paint ball gun. OPEN, LOOK, PASS. Basic T.O.W.E.T's for weapons. {Please dont ask me what that accronym means - I've been away from the Real army for a long time LOL }

    Give me a Sig Sauer 226 any day.
    Last edited by MalahatTwo7; 06-03-2007 at 11:26 PM.
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  12. #12
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Give me a Sig Sauer 226 any day.
    Will my P229 be good enough for ya?

    Or my P245?


    Neither have safeties on them.
    Last edited by DaSharkie; 06-04-2007 at 09:12 AM.
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  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Will my P229 be good enough for ya?

    Or my P245?


    Neither have safeties on them.
    Sounds good to me, but I am very familiar with the operations of the 226 - and am a firm believer in "What ain't broke, don't fix".
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

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  14. #14
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EFD840 View Post

    That snap you hear should answer beyond any doubt just how well a Glock 'safety' works. It only exists so Glock can say "sure, we got a safety" when somebody's bid spec requires it.
    It is one of 3 touted safety mechanisms. It is not a true external safety, nor is it ever advertised as such.

    Your mileage may vary with Glocks. I know that I have no interest in carrying a duty weapon with an external safety, as it would never be used and would be one more thing to go wrong. Guns are carried hot: press trigger, bang. As far as pistols go, it is, in my opinion, the simplest, safest, and most reliable option out there.

    Self-defense, target shooting, hunting... maybe an external safety is desirable. I don't think these are Glock's primary markets, though...

    As far as the "shooter":
    careless... unintended... accidental....

    I prefer negligent discharge. There is no excuse for such a dangerous situation.
    Last edited by Resq14; 06-04-2007 at 11:42 AM.
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  15. #15
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Sounds good to me, but I am very familiar with the operations of the 226 - and am a firm believer in "What ain't broke, don't fix".
    They all break down the same, the only difference really is size and barrell length.
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  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    They all break down the same, the only difference really is size and barrell length.
    Thats always good to know. Now of course the question would be, "Can these fingers of mine remember how to do their job?" Its only been about 8 years since the last time I actually held one and stripped it down etc.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

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  17. #17
    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    I've been assigned several weapons over the years, and the one point of commonality is that regardless of whether a safety is present or not, the gun is carried "hot" and ready to go "bang". I believe that's pretty standard just about any LE training program I've been around.

    I've carried several weapons from the Baretta 92 to a Kahr P9 for concealed carry. My true love is my Glock 23. Durable, small enough to carry comfortably, but most importantly, dependable. I also like the performance of the .40 cal of the Model 23 over the 9mm of most of the other guns I've carried, but that's another story. The one advantage to the Baretta, though is that even when empty, it can be implemented as a formidable club due to its size and weight. Forget about carrying that thing concealed. It hides about as well as an elephant on a gnats back.

    I've fired thousands of rounds through these guns, and never ever had a misfire or accidental discharge. I'm inclined to call this as Resq14 stated, a negligent discharge. Even in what many refer to as an accidental discharge, there's a component of human carelessness somewhere in the mix. You've got to assume that every weapon you handle, point, or wave around for whatever reason, is loaded. Assume anything else, and you'll have your "accidental discharges" as in this case.
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    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
    My true love is my Glock 23. Durable, small enough to carry comfortably, but most importantly, dependable.
    That's my personal lead-slinger as well! As much as I sometimes get tempted to have an affair with another pistol (for example, an HK USP 45 with LEM trigger), I've stayed true to the 23. I guess I'm just a one pistol man!
    Last edited by Resq14; 06-04-2007 at 03:01 PM.
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    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    I just recently qualified with and started carrying a Kahr P9 off duty. As much as I hate to say it, it's easier to hide and more comfortable to carry than the G23, but it's only a 9mm. While pretty small anyway, it's got an in line mag with 7 rounds, but still feels pretty solid in my big mitts. I still like knowing that I've got 13+1 versus 7+1 and bigger pieces to boot to throw downrange though. It's pretty nice to be able to grab the same weapon all the time, too.

    I remember an episode of MASH where Klinger said he couldn't possibly wear white shoes before Easter or after Labor Day. My Kahr may end up being the "white shoes" of my concealed carry ensemble.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by original
    Guns are dangerous. Everyone knows that. Don’t they??

    A police worker was accidentally shot by a gun specialist during a lecture on firearms awareness at the Thames Valley force’s headquarters.
    Now just for the heck of it let’s substitute a couple main words.
    Quote Originally Posted by hypothetical post
    Trucks are dangerous. Everyone knows that. Don’t they??
    A Firefighter was accidently run over by a truck driver trainer during a lecture on apparatus awareness at Thames Valley force’s headquarters.
    Maybe a class member was standing in front of the truck during a class and the instructor – standing on the step, started it without being in the driver’s seat, and then released the parking brake forgetting the truck was on a slope to demonstrate how white lights come back on.

    Now nobody would be investigating the truck and saying IT was dangerous? Would they? But when it’s a gun, sure enough guns are dangerous. Kind of puts it in perspective. TL

    Hey steamer. Good comparison. The Kahr P9 got raves for being so small and concealable (and rightly so!) for being a 9mm rather than a .32 or .25 like most others its size. I have one and love it. It’s my “warm weather gun” because it’s so small. During the cold months when you have more clothes on a concealing is easier – I like my Baby Eagles 9mm or .40 – w/ large capacity mags. TL

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