1. #1
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    Default Deletion of "A lesson in Freedom of Speech"

    Thread deleted by webteam
    Reason: Off original subject, unproductive and per earlier warning.
    I think we all know that "freedom of speech" is not gauranteed on a web forum but I doubt I'm alone in finding it ironic that this particular thread was deleted. Not just locked, editted, or otherwise censored for objectionable content; outright deleted.

    I didn't visit the thread regularly so I don't know what content upset the webteam so much that they felt the need to delete it but I do know it addressed a very profound issue worthy of discussion.

    If we were to delete every thread on the FH.com forum that went off topic and was "unproductive", we wouldn't have very much left. What on Earth stood out so much on the "Lesson" thread that the webteam chose it among all others?

    I've been among the minority here and supported the webteam's actions on several occasions when others chose to attack them. On this issue, however, I am enormously dissappointed in their judgement and their actions.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 06-04-2007 at 08:38 AM. Reason: typo
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    As stated earlier in the deleted thread,

    "If replies have cannot stay even slightly relevant to the subject, the thread will have to be closed, as it has no productive or positive merit."

    That, coupled with the suggestion by the author, was the reason for our decision.

    Webteam.

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    DM, I am only guessing here, but it might have something to do with the ole adage about the three things not to be discussed around the Firehouse kitchen table:

    Politics
    Religion
    ex-wives (sorry I had to add that last one for a bit of humour )

    ---

    However, like you, I have been and continue to be a fairly strong supporter to the general actions of the WT - its a job that I would not really be wanting to take on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by webteam View Post
    As stated earlier in the deleted thread,
    And lost in the deletion along with some good discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by webteam View Post
    "If replies have cannot stay even slightly relevant to the subject, the thread will have to be closed, as it has no productive or positive merit."
    Few long threads ever stay entirely "on-topic" -- that's just the nature of a developing conversation. As for "productive or positive merit," this is the Off-Duty Forums. How productive does a conversation need to be? The forum is full of recurrant threads and topics that are the very definition of not productive or positive and yet they routinely remain. What is the standard for comparison for "prodictivity" or "positive" content?

    Quote Originally Posted by webteam View Post
    That, coupled with the suggestion by the author, was the reason for our decision.
    The problem with that explanation is a thread doesn't have a single author -- it has many. Every poster has the option to edit or even delete the content of their own posts any time they wish. Why should a single "author" make the decision to delete the words of others?

    It's not uncommon on forums for a thread's original poster to request a thread to be locked but it's virtually unheard of for a thread to be deleted altogether on the OP's request.

    I know that moderating a forum of this size is a difficult task but, IMHO, scattered episodes of idiosyncratic thread deletion and random user banning isn't the solution. A forum this size needs a larger moderation team -- even if that means utilizing the extensive moderation system built into vBB to permit and organize user-moderators to help guide the forums.
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    I am not sure if the complete deletion of the thread is productive. Perhaps they should have just closed the thread to further posts. If that started a new thread to continue further discussion, then that would be productive, right?? I think that outright deletion is a severe censorship of some truly good talking points and honest discussion. If I remember some of the posts, the thread did bring about a common agreement from two different political beliefs (liberal and conservative). It is a lesson to me that even though I may disagree on many issues with a certain person, we do have common interest that bring us together, such as freedom of speech.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    DM, I am only guessing here, but it might have something to do with the ole adage about the three things not to be discussed around the Firehouse kitchen table:

    Politics
    Religion
    ex-wives (sorry I had to add that last one for a bit of humour

    Rick - Yours or mine??
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    Quote Originally Posted by webteam View Post
    As stated earlier in the deleted thread,

    "If replies have cannot stay even slightly relevant to the subject, the thread will have to be closed, as it has no productive or positive merit."

    That, coupled with the suggestion by the author, was the reason for our decision.

    Webteam.
    This is like talking to "The Architect" character off of the Matrix trilogy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    DM, I am only guessing here, but it might have something to do with the ole adage about the three things not to be discussed around the Firehouse kitchen table:

    Politics
    Religion
    ex-wives (sorry I had to add that last one for a bit of humour )

    ---

    However, like you, I have been and continue to be a fairly strong supporter to the general actions of the WT - its a job that I would not really be wanting to take on.
    Rick.. you're batting .666 (no religious significance implied)
    Two for three!
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    I am not sure if the complete deletion of the thread is productive.
    Why? Do you really think there was some valuable information worth learning in that thread? or, for the most part, most of the threads on here?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I think I should start my own press. Even in the absence of my threads, they are still provocative. Sorry for all the pain I have caused, especially to the webteam.
    "Yeah, but as I've always said, this country has A.D.D." - Denis Leary

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Rick.. you're batting .666 (no religious significance implied)
    Two for three!
    HAHAHHHAAAAAA
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    Default My final rant (I know, you're thinking, "So what?)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    It's not uncommon on forums for a thread's original poster to request a thread to be locked but it's virtually unheard of for a thread to be deleted altogether on the OP's request.
    As the OP, I did ask that the thread "A lesson in freedom of speech" be deleted. I don't recall the exact post number at which I made the request to the webteam, because the random postings were occurring faster than I could keep track.

    I attempted with, I recall, at least three specific posts, amidst a span of 100+ posts by other users, to direct the debate back to Chavez and his grip over the Venezuelan press. All three failed miserably. The thread in question decayed into a childish name-calling contest, and it was not uncommon for an entire page to be filled with just 2 or 3 forum members duking it out over everything from apparatus repair to missing holidays, and even one person giving out his SS# and address over the internet.

    No offense intended, but there was nothing productive in that thread, except for the unusual truce that formed during the "debate" (which after post 4 had nothing to do with Chavez) between left and right sides, in the face of their common enemy (flagrantly idiotic and incitive posters).

    For the record I have stated that I will not start new threads in the future, and should become less involved with these off-duty forums; it has become apparant that some of us, myself included, spend too much time here. Some of us are just too committed to winning an argument over the internet. Pause to think about that, if you will, and how very pathetic it sounds.

    P.S.

    I have absolutely no idea what the current conditions are in Venezuela, and frankly, don't care anymore. I've concluded that this is an apathy shared by many others here.

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    At the question of whether a deleted thread was productive, YES, I believe parts of it were. Regardless of the childish name calling and self promotion online, between some of the posts there were some good protrayals of freedom of speech, albeit very off topic. Of course, I do understand that each individual on this forum doesn't really have any right to do or say anything, and that to post our opinions on here is simply a privilidge given to us by the webteam that allows our interaction on their website. I liked how the webteam did offer a warning before shutting the thread down. It was a fair chance to try to get the discussion back on topic. Maybe the whole thread was "a lesson in freedom of speech."

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    I think it was a learning experience.
    “Free speech is great, but it can be overused and it does have unintended consequences sometimes”.

    Everything has sensible limits. As I said before, something we should all keep in mind when openly opposing our Government and military actions. There are consequences for that being paid by our boys overseas as we speak. TL

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSIaerialmanTIM View Post
    I think it was a learning experience.
    “Free speech is great, but it can be overused and it does have unintended consequences sometimes”.

    Everything has sensible limits. As I said before, something we should all keep in mind when openly opposing our Government and military actions. There are consequences for that being paid by our boys overseas as we speak. TL
    Just like there were in the 90's when conservatives were criticizing the actions of a President who had troops in harm's way.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    ...and even one person giving out his SS# and address over the internet.
    Must've missed that one.

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    There are consequences for that being paid by our boys overseas as we speak.
    Bull****.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Bull****.
    The actions of far left people in the states are used as a recruiting tool by the terrorists, just like jane fonda was in Vietnam. When will people learn that sometimes loose lips sink ships. TL

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSIaerialmanTIM View Post
    The actions of far left people in the states are used as a recruiting tool by the terrorists, just like jane fonda was in Vietnam. When will people learn that sometimes loose lips sink ships. TL
    This is exactly why the last thread was deleted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSIaerialmanTIM View Post
    The actions of far left people in the states are used as a recruiting tool by the terrorists, just like jane fonda was in Vietnam. When will people learn that sometimes loose lips sink ships. TL
    I think that this takes care of the fly-bys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    This is exactly why the last thread was deleted.
    I hope that the above statement was not the reason. It would be agreeing with the two MO's that are becoming so prevelant in today's society: The first being "Look the other way. Maybe they may not come after me." The second is "Throw 'em under the bus to keep me out of trouble or from looking bad."
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    Thumbs down

    No it wasn't Geinandputitout.

    Don't lie about things. Try it sometime, TL

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    BTW...SSIaerialmanTIM..Your signature is awesome. I may have to use it one day.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Why? Do you really think there was some valuable information worth learning in that thread? or, for the most part, most of the threads on here?
    Actually sir, this is the off duty forums, therefore anything goes. I actually didn't follow the thread, but if it was as active as some say then there surely was some interest. Myself, I loose interest in a thread when the name calling starts, and it really shows a total lack of understanding of the topic at hand and also lacks professionalism. One can debate and discuss in rational, logical terms. When it degrades to name calling you really lose all respect and any credibility you may have built.

    As a public place to express ones opinions I really questioning closing any threads. That power should be used with great restraint.

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    "I know who you are and I'm gonna tell your Chief about you" speaks a lot of ones character as well.

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    As a public place to express ones opinions I really questioning closing any threads. That power should be used with great restraint.
    Could people with lofty I.Q. quotients please use gooder england so us mere mortals can read what you saying proper like.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
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