1. #1

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    May 2007

    Question politics and money

    ok. if there wer no politics or money restraints on ordering a new rig, who would you have build it?

  2. #2
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    Aug 2004
    Potsdam NY


    It would definitly be a SeaGrave. The last one we had in the station was a 1939 open cab.

  3. #3
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    DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Apr 2005
    Connecticut, USA


    (I know it's off topic but did anyone else get a chuckle out of rPIERCE wanting a Seagrave? )
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  4. #4
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    FyredUp's Avatar
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    Jul 1999
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee


    Honestly, my choice for a builder would be who could build EXACTLY what the specs said, had the best warranty, and the best delivery time.


    Seeing as I have made it plainly known here who I sell apparatus for...I think they would do all that for me.

  5. #5
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    Oct 2005
    Woodbridge Twp, New Jersey


    Seagrave/Aerialscope with a stainless steel cab & body !...

  6. #6
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    dday05's Avatar
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    Aug 2005


    I know I wouldn't be buying a ALF. Maybe a Seagrave or a Sutphen.

  7. #7
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    Engine305's Avatar
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    Jun 2006
    Sahuarita AZ, formerly of Hewitt NJ


    Article in Bergen record on an apparatus purchase
    Last edited by Engine305; 06-05-2007 at 07:21 PM.

  8. #8
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    redbaron's Avatar
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    Jun 2004
    kennett square, PA


    Tough decision but I'm going for the Metz!

  9. #9
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    Dec 2002



  10. #10
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    Mar 2007

    Default money no object?

    ...........maybeeee a sutphen or a crimson......... i think with money being no object tho..........it would be a perfect excuse to buy something really inflated just to be able to spend all that extra money...........like a pierce ......i couldnt resisit

  11. #11

    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Outlandish purchases

    Ok....money no issue. I want to be a fire truck salesman where you live and get all your money, buy a new boat and thinking probably a new Escalade, color black!

    Lets think about what one other poster said about meeting spec, building what you want and warranty. Much to be said for that response!

    I have been around fire trucks for a few days now. It was very interesting in the days when there were "junk trucks/builders" and "good trucks/builders". Again, having been around ALOT of firetrucks accross the country and abroad, I can without exception say that the gap between "good builders" and "bad builders" has significantly closed. I believe there are MANY great trucks availabel to us today. Yes, MANY.

    I am a bit sarcastic about this piece of the puzzle here and it may sound as though i am a Pierce basher, and I assure you, I am not. I believe Pierce builds a great truck! Here it comes....BUTTTTTTTT......they seriously are the masters of disguise and marketing magicians. Manufacturers are becoming crafty in their approach and presentation to the market. Pierce has ALWAYS been the "master of disguise". Take an idea, design or comcept that has been around FOREVER and make it look to the market as though they invented it and are the only guys int he world who are capacable of it! Then to boot, they throw a price tag on it that will bust the Visa Gold card! Its truly funny how they take a (their latest) the PUC, which was built for YEARS by other companies and come accross as the inventors of a pump under the cab. Look around at companies like Young, Saulsbury, RD Murray (ALF) who built pumps under the cab for YEARS before this introduction of the market changing product Pierce introduced!! Hogwash!

    Anyways, back to the other comment on compliance, design, warranty, support. Lets look at these damn things we call fire trucks. Why my name is "Justafiretruck". Why, because its "just a fire truck". People get all side ways over brand names and brand loyalty, drink wierd kool aide form Wisconsin and so forth. lets get VERY serious. Fire trucks are an assmebled product with a VERY limited amount of true "Manufacturing". This is one guy who is VERY much in the belief that fire trucks plants are "assembly facilities" for a bunch of stuff "manufacturered" by other companies. TRULY look....

    Engines- Detroit, Cummins, Cat, IH
    Transmissions- Allison
    Radiators- Blackstone, Modine
    Steering gears- Ross, Sheppard
    Axles- Meritor/Rockwell, Spicer
    Suspensions- Reyco, Raydan, Henrickson, etc
    Cabs- TCM, Marion (Spartan uses Marion), Some DO build their own (ie: KME, Pierce, ALF)
    Pumps- Hale, Darley, Waterous, limited foreign pump use like Rosenbauer
    Valves- Akron, Elkhart
    Governors- Class One, FRC, Detroit
    Intake Valves- Hale, Elkhart, Akron
    Gauges- Class One, No-Shok, etc
    Tanks- UPF, Propoly, etc.
    Steps- Eberhard, Austin, Zico, Cast Products, etc.
    Doors- Amdor, ROM, Gortite, POK, etc.
    Slides for slide trays- Grant, johnathon, slide master, etc.
    Bottle racks- Zico, PAC, etc.
    Ladder racks- Zico, etc.
    Door latches- MANY
    Ladders and misc equipment- MANY....

    What is the point....NO ONE including Pierce, is "SOLE SOURCE"....ALL manufacturers buy stuff and "package it". Now, granted, some package better than others. BUTTTT....I do believe that if you have a manufacturer who wants to package it as YOU need for your own operating parameters and geographic challenges, you then have a "partner" to expand upon to build a GREAT fire truck. I think the air of "forcing" manufactuers into things is a WRONG approach. I have become a believer that you find a "PARTNER" to work with in building a product that is sound in design, reliability, and proven configuration. How do you get there???

    Look at the overall product offering. Do they have the products that you will need over the long haul to replace every piece of fire apparatus you will purchase. Are they a diverse enough company to be a sole source supplier in a wide array of products and will they customize to meet YOUR needs? I think there is in fact benefit to forming a long term relationship with a manufacturer, so long as they provide it at a fair price and you keep them in check with that by seeking competitve bid prices through writing performance specifications, verses proprietary specifications.

    Write a design performance specification. How many firemen know the difference betweent he 67 different types of body mounts manufacturers use? How many fireman really know the difference between a rbm of a frame rail rated at 3,345,000 verses 2,289,000? What really is the benfit of stainless steel verses aluminum? What is the difference between 3003 and 5052 alloy aluminum? What is the true difference between 80,000 - 100,000psi steel or 6061T6 aluminum used in ladder construction, when they all give it a rating of a 500# tip load? What makes an akron valve better than an elkhart valve, unless it is for common stocking service parts? Who says a tube rub rail is as good as a formed or channel rubrail? Whats makes a 3" floor flange better than a 2" floor flange? The list goes on and on. Establish the basics and then get rid of the manufacturer specific whizzy wording.

    Service! Service! Service! Amazes me to no end that people buy trucks with no support service center near them to back up the product! A promise of service and it ends up being a guy in a pickup with a tool box in the back!! Where is the delaers investment with parts, technicians, facilities, mobile road service, and a true dealership? THIS IS NOT AN OPTION ANYMORE! Does your dealer have things like free pick up and delivery during the warranty period? Will they come to you for free during the warranty period? Even after the warranty expires, how do they help you with service with limited day time personnel to transport trucks? How far away is the dealer service center. Can your department find people or afford to take trucks 2-3-4 hours away there and back for service? Now, this item alone may put you into a Pierce, a KME or an ALF....but it is a seriosu requirement. Do not rollover becasue we like a sales guy or a single whizzy featuire some buidler offers with no service after it gets there.

    A QUALIFIED sales person who has invested in their education to know the truck and design intimately. Not...the old....I don't know, I will get abck with you, the deer in the headlight look... If the dealer is worthless, he will write you a worthless spec! If he is worthless, check into the service further, as it does not say alot about the delaership that employs them, without educating them before tossing them into the field! if the sales guy is incompetant and you still like the product, call the factory for someone to come directly that can answer all your concerns and design requirements.

    Get beyond the paint, shiney chrome and polished stainless. There are MANY manufacturers out there that are trying to increase bottom line by reducing material content, cutting coners that the average joe cannot see....So look beyond and see the core of the product. Go look or demand pictures of raw cabs (before upholstery and cheap plastic cover up panels), body subframes without sheet metal, in process pictures, etc. While I desensitize the "manufacturing" perspective, there are some who hide alot and hide it well.

    Now.....price.....we ALL must be financially responsible when spending taxpayer money. Does that sya we need to buy the lowest prioced piece of crap coming onto the bid table? NO NO NO! BUTTTTTTTT.....I can say and without being derogatory to Pierce....that their prices are the most rediculous thing I have EVER seen!!! The average Pierce of late, in our area, runs about $20-$50,000 more than the 3 or 4 bidders grouped within $3-$5k of each other. On aerials, we see Pierce falling on the average of $75-$100K more than the others. Its INSANE....but its a "Pierce". OMG! So...while i believe you need more than price, keep people in check and paying 10-20% more for a truck is NOT being financially responsible!!! I know its hard to have your Pierce tatto removed and change it to another builder, but sometimes folks, you are just plain taking a hosing!!!!! Candid enough?

    Realizing most have fallen asleep by now...I will STOP!

    Good luck and stay safe.....


  12. #12
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    Mar 2007


    Last edited by 5alarmcooker; 03-17-2008 at 07:42 PM.

  13. #13
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    Join Date
    Nov 1999


    Whoever met our specs, backed their product and had service after the sale in our part of the world with a decent parts inventory, timely service and are easy to work with, keep their time frames and word.

    Unless it is an aerial, then it would be an E-One.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


  14. #14
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    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Swanton Fire Dept. Swanton, Vermont


    Quote Originally Posted by titan1762 View Post
    ok. if there wer no politics or money restraints on ordering a new rig, who would you have build it?
    Way out there thought.... NO Restraints.... Money no object.....

    I would get the best people in the industry, build a shop and build it by the people I hired.

    I would have to be Bill Gates to afford it but..... You would get what you wanted and have the support to maintain it later....

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