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Thread: Buying New Hose

  1. #1
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    Default Buying New Hose

    We need to buy an engines worth of new hose and I have a few questions...

    For attack hose, we are looking for stuff that packs well in the bed and also holds up well. We don't want single jacket or "hi-rise" hose. We want woven double jacket. The hose doesnt get a ton of use, but it needs to hold up well. We arent interested in Ponn Conquest or any of the fancy "gimmick" super duper low abrasion resistance low friction loss stuff, just plain ole hose thats actually the size thats stamped on the jacket.

    For hose thats colored, are there any brands that the actual fibers are colored, and the coloring isn't applied as an after the fact "dipping" type process?

    We have looked at the Dura-Pack by Snap Tite and it seems nice, any other suggestions for something similar?

    Can anyone tell me the difference between nylon and polyester hose?

    We are currently using Triple Duty High Pressure 4" hose from Snap Tite. Any other brands that have 300 PSI rating for 4" that would be comprable?

    Cost is a consideration as could be expected, but not the number one issue.

    Thanks for the help ahead of time.
    Last edited by MG3610; 06-04-2007 at 09:33 PM.


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    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Can anyone tell me the difference between nylon and polyester hose?
    Oh......oh........oh........I got this one!!

    Nylon hose is made from nylon, where polyester hose is made with polyester.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


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    for good attack line check out Neider 800XL The rolled diameter is much smaller and beds lower than any other on the market, and it holds up very well even after years of rough fire duty
    Last edited by 37truck; 06-05-2007 at 01:09 PM.

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    Look on the Vindicator nozzle website under the testimony section. There is a great evaluation of attack hoses there done by Montgomery County MD. It, in the end really looks like Ponn Conquest tops the tests. We bought it and love it. Low friction loss high abrasion resistance, less kinks, better burn through times. It costs a bit more than most but less than Hi-Combat which didn't fair as well in their testing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Oh......oh........oh........I got this one!!

    Nylon hose is made from nylon, where polyester hose is made with polyester.
    Thats exactly what I was looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Look on the Vindicator nozzle website under the testimony section. There is a great evaluation of attack hoses there done by Montgomery County MD. It, in the end really looks like Ponn Conquest tops the tests. We bought it and love it. Low friction loss high abrasion resistance, less kinks, better burn through times. It costs a bit more than most but less than Hi-Combat which didn't fair as well in their testing.
    Thanks. We have conquest 1 3/4" now. Its really more like 2" hose, and we want 1 3/4" hose if such a thing really still exists. It is a pain in the butt having hose that has its own special friction loss cards too.

    I'll look at the study, good info, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Thanks. We have conquest 1 3/4" now. Its really more like 2" hose, and we want 1 3/4" hose if such a thing really still exists. It is a pain in the butt having hose that has its own special friction loss cards too.

    I'll look at the study, good info, thanks.
    We found the nominal width of the Conquest vs. our true 1.75" was not enough to affect our hoseloads so we didn't even worry about the size. Also, we have found the friction loss in 1.75" varies GREATLY manufacturer to manufacturer and by model so none of the generic friction loss cards worked out. But there certainly others that perform well also. The biggest issue we have with Conquest is getting it. It seems to take 3-6 months as we order color coded hose.

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    Default Hoses

    MG,

    Nylon vs Polyester

    Nylon use to give better kink resistance due to its higher elongation, but recent trends with Poly now can make it just as flexible at lower costs.

    Nylon is about 10-20% more expensive.

    Both give about the same abrasion resistance, coated.

    Nylon has to be coated, period. Poly doesn't. This adds about 8-10% of the price difference.

    Colored yarn is available in Polyester, called Skein Dyed, buts it adds quite a bit to the price, and does nothing in adding abrasion resistance. Ponn used to offer it, but I think they stopped because of cost issues.

    Most Poly and all Nylon is originally white, period. It can be coated any color, and the coating will add brasion resistance, if specified.

    FYI, skein dyed or white, uncoated hoses, typically run 4,000 cycles on a tabor machine. The same hoses coated can run up to 50,000 cycles on the same machine test.

    Dura Pack and TD are Nylon 6/6 (cordura) hoses with thermoplastic (TPU) liners. Great hoses IMHO.

    But, TPU comes loose, or "delaminates" with age, and can end up in the pump or nozzle. Some brands are worse than others.

    As an option in small diameters, look at EPDM liners, they are in between the thickness of the old thick rubber and thinner TPU, but they don't delaminate or crack with age.

    My opinion,

    Attack lines <4", DJ polyester, EPDM lined, coated.

    >4" On LDH attack, I love TD or the North American "Tri Flow" equivalent. On supply, purchase rubber covered 200 psi service test.

    JT

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    After problems with thermoplastic liner delamination after minimal use, some only annual hose test in all our hose (4 inch, 2 1/2, 1 3/4) that came from the same company, we have switched to Mercedes Hose with good results.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by 37truck View Post
    for good attack line check out Neider 800XL The rolled diameter is much smaller and beds lower than any other on the market, and it holds up very well even after years of rough fire duty
    Gotta throw the ball the other way on the Neider hose. We bought a bunch of it about 10 years ago, and within 3 years had thrown away 75% of it. Very poor heat resistance (saw 2 new sections melt down at a garage fire before it was charged. Not very close either. Other brand hose lying closer to the fire did not have any damage). Inner liner got so loose we couldn't get it to flow 95 gpm and get the foam eductor to work.
    I had a picture of a piece of Neider 5" that was being rolled after use. The hose was fully round, but, not a drop of water coming out of the coupling. The liner was so twisted that it wouldn't allow water to flow out of it. Sometimes we'd break a line down and have the inner liner hanging out of the coupling.
    Luckily we have gotten away from the Neider. Using Conquest 1.75" and 2.5", National 5", all woven jacketed hose.

  11. #11
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    We run with all rubber hose so I guess I'm not to much help to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtstoney View Post
    MG,

    Nylon vs Polyester

    Nylon use to give better kink resistance due to its higher elongation, but recent trends with Poly now can make it just as flexible at lower costs.

    Nylon is about 10-20% more expensive.

    Both give about the same abrasion resistance, coated.

    Nylon has to be coated, period. Poly doesn't. This adds about 8-10% of the price difference.

    Colored yarn is available in Polyester, called Skein Dyed, buts it adds quite a bit to the price, and does nothing in adding abrasion resistance. Ponn used to offer it, but I think they stopped because of cost issues.

    Most Poly and all Nylon is originally white, period. It can be coated any color, and the coating will add brasion resistance, if specified.

    FYI, skein dyed or white, uncoated hoses, typically run 4,000 cycles on a tabor machine. The same hoses coated can run up to 50,000 cycles on the same machine test.

    Dura Pack and TD are Nylon 6/6 (cordura) hoses with thermoplastic (TPU) liners. Great hoses IMHO.

    But, TPU comes loose, or "delaminates" with age, and can end up in the pump or nozzle. Some brands are worse than others.

    As an option in small diameters, look at EPDM liners, they are in between the thickness of the old thick rubber and thinner TPU, but they don't delaminate or crack with age.

    My opinion,

    Attack lines <4", DJ polyester, EPDM lined, coated.

    >4" On LDH attack, I love TD or the North American "Tri Flow" equivalent. On supply, purchase rubber covered 200 psi service test.

    JT

    Thank you for thsat info, exactly what I was looking for. What does EPDM mean anyway?

    Of all brands that coat the hose to color it, which ones are the least like folding cardboard when you try to repack it. The coated Angus Ultima Ive seen is TERRIBLE.

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    Whatever you do, stay away from that Nappy Headed hose...it's nothing but trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackstepFF View Post
    Whatever you do, stay away from that Nappy Headed hose...it's nothing but trouble.
    Now thats funny!!
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Its time for a revival...

    We have narrowed down the search to two brands. Ponn Supreme and National Durapak.

    Looking for some feedback from end users of both in regards to durability, ease of packing (folds and sits nicely in a bed) and weight. I have all the "statistics" off the cut sheets, but real world testemonials are always nice to hear.

    Key differences are...

    Supreme is rubber lined, Durapak is thermoplastic lined. Supreme is Poly, Durapak is Nylon. Supreme (that we want) would be uncoated with the abrasion coating, the Durapak comes with it standard. The Supreme weighs about 5 lbs more per 50' section than the Durapak. Supreme comes available with a colored stripe (which is what we want ideally) and Durapak only comes in solid colors. Test data I have found shows friction loss almost identical for both.

    I am leaning towards Supreme due to its ability to have a stripe, availability in 2", and that it is available in an uncoated version. I have found hose that has the abrasion resistance coating seems to roll and pack like cardboard.

    Some of you think im way over-engineering this process, but this is an entire engine worht of hose that we are buying and about $9000 we are spending. I don't want to mess it up. Any thoughts?

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    We used 1.75" Ponn Supreme for years. It was good hose, but we started buying the Ponn Conquest which seems to be better packing and is treated/coated so it can be reloaded wet. While I agree the Conquest folds harder, it seems to stay better in the bed. The Supreme uncoated seemed to slide around a bit more. Depending on the loads and beds, this may or may not be an issue.

    Again, I think the Montgomery Co. FD tests have great info. Here's the link:


    http://00691ee.netsolhost.com/Testimony.htm

    You'll have to open the Mont. Co. Test PDF (for Vindicator nozzles) and then go to page 28 where the hose evaluation begins. They were looking at 1.75" but I'd trust that the data would hold nearly true other than specific FL and GPM numbers.

    I just noticed that the actual test were done by Paul Shapiro and the data was given to MCo. FD. Still seems very relevant to me.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-18-2007 at 09:21 AM.

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    Have used Ponn Supreme for a long time. Pretty good value, performance, and durability for the cost, but lately have had to wait a very long time for delivery. One thing I really like about the Supreme over the duracoated Conquest is if you get the Supreme really wet, either by hosing down or running through a hose washer, it will reload very easily. It's polyester, so mold/mildew is not gonna damage it. I've seen new Conquest that has ridden in the bed for along time act as if the Duracoat is an adhesive, and also seen the rigid/abrasive quality of the Duracoat rub a hole in the hose as it rides in the hosebed.
    As far as colored stripes, I'm not really fond of doing that. We're finding that we now have to stock multiple colors of spare hose to replace damaged. I like either the colored rubber bands placed at the couplings, or even better, color code the nozzle bales and pistol grips (if you use a pistol grip) to match the pump panel tags.

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    Thank you both for your replies!

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