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  1. #1
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    Default FDC connection quest

    Fire Dept connections with a siamese. IFSTA Pumping Apparatus Driver/ Operator Handbook says hook up with either 2 2 1/2 or 1 3 inch line, when I took a pump class at the Fire Academy my Instructor taught the same method, My Dept's general orders also say this. Last night I had a heated conversation with a Officer on my dept, he says the general orders are a misprint and what I have read and taught is wrong, he said use 2 3 inch lines. Anyone know why the experts recommend 1?
    Another quest regarding FDC's what do you prefer and why, stortz connections or a siamese with 2 2 1/2 fittings, could you also list pro's and con's to both


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    Following department standing orders is a good SOP, however officers are officers and should have the ability to give resonable orders without question. One 3 inch line may provide enough volume for standpipe or sprinkler operations depending on flow. However, in real life there have been reports of falling glass or debris puncturing hoselines feeding the standpipe or a burst length so a dual feed provides some redundant safety for the interior crews.

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    I believe (and this is what we teach) that the IFSTA manual is talking about the minimum number and size of lines for the pipe. Why limit yourself to the flow of a single 3" if you can use 2?

    As I side note, I know of a department near me that's changing their FDCs on standpipes and sprinkler systems to 5" on all new construction and existing buildings (where the owners will cooperate, which isn't much of an issue from my understanding). The main reason is to maximize flow.

  4. #4
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I believe (and this is what we teach) that the IFSTA manual is talking about the minimum number and size of lines for the pipe. Why limit yourself to the flow of a single 3" if you can use 2?
    Exactly! You can supply a mutiversal with 500 gpm through a single 2 1/2" line if you are 100' away or less, but why not supply it with two lines, lower the amount of friction loss per line and lowere the pump discharge pressure which will lower the engine rpm's making it easier on the apparatus and ultimately safer for everyone operating around the lines.

    I say your officer is correct in his tactic in this scenario.
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  5. #5
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    our code calls for 4.5" NST male thread for a sprinkler or standpipe connection. We carry 5" with 4.5" threaded coupling LDH. Typically we supply via reverse lay. Still plenty of 2.5" siamese connections out there, and we simply put a reducer on the 5" LDH. In some residential applications, we even see some 1.5" connections.

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    Just curious to those using LDH for standpipe FDC connections, are you using high-pressure LDH? I ask because the main point of pumping in to an FDC, with or without a fire pump, is to pump at a high pressure to compensate for the elevation loss, and loss of the piping in the system, so that the attack lines have the sufficient pressures to produce effective fire streams and flows. Most LDH is service tested at 200 psi, with most saying to never use it at higher than 175 psi. To me this isn't a high enough pressure to supply many high rises. Most 2-1/2" or 3" hose is service tested at 400-450 psi, which allows a more acceptable pressures to be delivered to high rises' standpipe systems, and even that isn't enough for some of the tallest buildings if the building's own pumps fail. If I understand correctly, pumping a 40 story high rise with 150 psi isn't going to get water to the top floor regardless of whether or not it's 5" LDH or a 12 inch water main that's providing that pressure. You can have all the volume you want, but if there's no pressure it isn't going to get to the floors you need it to be at.
    Last edited by FTLAUD; 06-06-2007 at 11:37 PM.

  7. #7
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    When I went through the state Dr/Op class a couple of years ago, they taught that the minimum connections were either 1 - 3" line or 2 - 2 1/2" lines to provide the adequate GPM's. In our dept we hook up and charge a 3" line at least get started, then hook up the second 3" line.
    Quote Originally Posted by FTLAUD View Post
    Just curious to those using LDH for standpipe FDC connections, are you using high-pressure LDH? I ask because the main point of pumping in to an FDC, with or without a fire pump, is to pump at a high pressure to compensate for the elevation loss, and loss of the piping in the system, so that the attack lines have the sufficient pressures to produce effective fire streams and flows. Most LDH is service tested at 200 psi, with most saying to never use it at higher than 175 psi. To me this isn't a high enough pressure to supply many high rises. Most 2-1/2" or 3" hose is service tested at 400-450 psi, which allows a more acceptable pressures to be delivered to high rises' standpipe systems, and even that isn't enough for some of the tallest buildings if the building's own pumps fail. If I understand correctly, pumping a 40 story high rise with 150 psi isn't going to get water to the top floor regardless of whether or not it's 5" LDH or a 12 inch water main that's providing that pressure. You can have all the volume you want, but if there's no pressure it isn't going to get to the floors you need it to be at.
    This isn't quite true. Pressure loss for elevation is .434 psi per foot or roughly 5psi per floor of any building. So even if it is a 40 story bldg you're only looking at about 20psi for friction loss.
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  8. #8
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    Well the way I see it, is the clapper device in the connection adds a friction element. The use of two lines causes a problem because they will not be flowing at exactly the same rate. This will cause the flapper in the connection to partialy close on the weaker incoming line, which causes a unmeasurable amount of friction loss. We feed with one LDH and use a cap on the other side if it is a weak plastic cover. This causes the flapper to fold over and fully open the FDC.

    I guess like always it's all planned out well, but in reality it is what works the best for that incident. I say drill on both and when the time comes, use what you feel goes best for the scenario.

    Have fun and BE SAFE!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick533 View Post
    When I went through the state Dr/Op class a couple of years ago, they taught that the minimum connections were either 1 - 3" line or 2 - 2 1/2" lines to provide the adequate GPM's. In our dept we hook up and charge a 3" line at least get started, then hook up the second 3" line.

    This isn't quite true. Pressure loss for elevation is .434 psi per foot or roughly 5psi per floor of any building. So even if it is a 40 story bldg you're only looking at about 20psi for friction loss.
    5 psi/floor * 40 floors = 200 psi elevation loss, not 20 psi loss. So if your hose is pumping 175 psi, you aren't going to get any pressure at the 40th floor. So to me, I don't see why any department would use a hose that isn't supposed to be pumped at any less than 250 psi at the bare minimum. And even that 250 discharge pressure would only get you 50 psi at the outlet, not counting off for friction loss of the piping.
    Last edited by FTLAUD; 06-07-2007 at 12:37 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Stick533
    When I went through the state Dr/Op class a couple of years ago, they taught that the minimum connections were either 1 - 3" line or 2 - 2 1/2" lines to provide the adequate GPM's. In our dept we hook up and charge a 3" line at least get started, then hook up the second 3" line.

    This isn't quite true. Pressure loss for elevation is .434 psi per foot or roughly 5psi per floor of any building. So even if it is a 40 story bldg you're only looking at about 20psi for friction loss.

    5 psi/floor * 40 floors = 200 psi elevation loss, not 20 psi loss. So if your hose is pumping 175 psi, you aren't going to get any pressure at the 40th floor. So to me, I don't see why any department would use a hose that isn't supposed to be pumped at any less than 250 psi at the bare minimum. And even that 250 discharge pressure would only get you 50 psi at the outlet, not counting off for friction loss of the piping.


    ****************************** ****************************
    Actually stick is on the right track. Elevation loss is .434 psi per foot, he just times it by the number of floors and not actually height. Typically height per floor is 12' 12*0.434 = 208.32 . The 5 psi per floor is a down and dirty calcuation to you in the ballpark. For a 12' floor the actual loss is 5.208 so we call 5 psi good enough for fireground ops.

  11. #11
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    whoops, I somewhere started thinking 40' instead of 40 floors. My mistake. Yeah, with a total elevation of about 400' (figuring 10' per floor) it comes to about 200psi strictly for elevation. We don't have anything higher than 5 stories around here, but I believe most departments solve this by using a relay setup. 1st pumper kicks up the pressure to 150-175psi then the 2nd pumper adds another 150-175psi which brings up the total pressure to 300-350psi. This is usually enough for the elevation, standpipe, friction loss and also the nozzle pressure. I've heard that 3 or even 4 pumpers can be used to achieve higher numbers, I'm just wondering what the maximum standpipe operating pressures are rated at for such highrises.
    Scott Maples
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  12. #12
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick533 View Post
    I'm just wondering what the maximum standpipe operating pressures are rated at for such highrises.
    Talking NFPA, use a ball park test pressure of 500gm @ 65psi at the most remote standpipe connection which in most cases is on the roof, furthest from the FDC. Now Im sure there is a safety factor built in, I just dont know what that is off hand.

    As for what we do...2 3" lines into FDCs. We do not use LDH as although you would get more flow, you dont have the redundancy of two lines.
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    ______________
    Last edited by 5alarmcooker; 03-17-2008 at 07:41 PM.

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