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  1. #1
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    Default Doing search and vent with a hose

    My dept's Ops Chief has the opinion that we should have an uncharged hose with us if we're doing primary search and the vent crew should have a charged hose on the roof for protection. Most of us crew members don't agree and I'm curious to see what response I can get from any of you forum members as to whether or not you agree with using the hose in those situations. I realize you shouldn't be on the roof long enough to need a hose for protection and that a hose will drastically reduce your speed during a search. Thanks.


  2. #2
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    What does he propose the crew on the roof do with that hose? Hang onto it if you slide off the other side?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    We do neither with a hoseline. Rescue and/or the truck do searches all the time with no charged or uncharged hoseline. The truck vents without a hoseline, although the bucket does have a very short length of 1.75" in it,I have never seen it used. Primary searches are supposed to be done quickly, and venting as quick as possible, then get off the roof.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    Taking a hose up on a roof to vent? Oh boy, with all of us being understaffed, yeah we will get right on top of that. What does he expect you to do with it once it's up there? I feel it would get in the way and cause just antoher hazard that we would have to worry about tripping on or even tripping and falling off the roof. I don't know. I could even picture someone cutting it with the saw or something as well. Hopefully you can talk your chie out of this. Good luck.

  5. #5
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    No way on either. Get up cut the hole and get off,takes the heat off the primary search guys and they can see what their doing. Primary search is quick but good with a set of irons. Big rooms add a search rope. Its not rocket science.

  6. #6
    Forum Member len1582's Avatar
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    Taking a line during search only slows you down as you have to drag it all over. I don't know what type of buildings you have. But if you were to search the top floor of a 4-story, who's going to lug 5-6-7 lengths of hose? Don't forget you have to get all the way into each and every apartment if possible, then backtrack.
    On the roof, protection from mosquitos??(I know he means fire) I've spent many years in areas with 2 and 3 story frames, most are attached. 3 -5 -10 in a row, a whole block long. A line never was a priority. Carry tools, not a line. Cut your hole, trench if need be, make sure you've done a complete job, then get off.

  7. #7
    Forum Member fireman4949's Avatar
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    I agree that neither should be done with a hose!

    Protection on the roof? The most likely thing that would happen is some nut would stick it into the vent hole, thinking he'll help knock down some fire and cook the guys inside.

    Search with a line? Try it some time. I'll bet you'll only do it once.
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  8. #8
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    My dept's Ops Chief has the opinion
    Nothing wrong with having an opinion. Not going to find too many people that will agree with his opinion, but he has one.

    Our search teams do not bring hose with them. Our vent "team" do not take hose with them. Our roof man does not take a hose with him either.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    You might be surprised that the tactic of advancing a charged line to the roof prior to venting is being taught quit a bit lately. I have seen many training videos in recent years that demonstrate a crew on the ladder with the handline, with the intent to "protect" the vent crew from smoke/flame. My thoughts are that it would be more of an obstruction, or even a hazard that could knock a disoriented FF into the hole, or off the roof. Not to mention the hazards of winter ops.

    IMHO, it is a waste of already stretched manpower, and will do little help in the event of a collapse or violent breach. The idea that it can be used to aid the ventilation efforts via venturi effect is somewhat valid, but is it really necessary or useful???

    I guess it is another tool, but I just can't ever see having the resources to do it, even if I had the inclination.
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    I have to disagree with the Chief.... Dragging a hose line during search will only slow you down and get extangled in the Crap people have in the house.... As for the roof, If you need protection on the roof, get off... Having a handline on the roof only gives them the oportunity to put the wet stuff on the red stuff. From the roof, Bad idea, not down the vent hole..... Let the vent crew vent, they shouldn't be putting them selves in the possition of needing the protection, if so then their vent is working..... Not being a truckie, I have to look out for the engine co.. If im inside and someone puts the line in the hole, whoever did it is going to get their ***** kicked when I get out.......If you are doing the search inconjunction fire attack (staffing issue) then yes have the handline....Just my two Cents
    Be SAFE!!! Go home when your shift is done and enjoy life.
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  11. #11
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    ^^^^ Excellent point ^^^^

    If you are standing on the roof of any modern building and you need to spray water on something that badly, you should probably get the hell off the roof.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  12. #12
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    Department SOP requires that search teams have a 1.75" line with them. The purpose is to give them both a tether to the outside and allow them to fight fire should they find it. A hoseline to the roof is not required by SOP, but recommended while operating on the roofs of commercial structures.

    My previous department had the same policy regarding search teams, and a similiar policy regarding roof operations.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    The idea that it can be used to aid the ventilation efforts via venturi effect is somewhat valid, but is it really necessary or useful???
    I'd note that if you need to use a Venturi effect to get he smoke up and out you either didn't need the vent or placed it wrong.

    We do not send a hose to the roof or on search. As mentioned the hose to the roof will slow the firefighters escape. Done right, there is very little danger of being engulfed when popping the hole in the roof. I'm more concerned with guys who wear their masks on the roof who can't see through the fogged up lense. This is how people fall into holes or walk of the edges. Between the pack on your back, the angle of a pitched roof, the fogged mask, swing and axe or using a saw you have a firefighter who is not when balanced. In the last two academies I've been involved with we find that more and more students have never even stepped foot on a roof or started a saw. It takes them ten times as much practice to be comfortable on a roof, nevermind wearing an SCBA too.

    Sorry that went a little of topic. We also do not send a search crew with a line. This will slow the crew drastically. If we have to have 3-4 guys to make an effective stretch to the fire because we need coupling popped around doorways and someone at the 3rd 90 degree turn, how in hell can we search with a charged line, and the uncharged line being stretched without taking the time to ensure it doesn't fetch up or get caught under a door will be useless when the water stops three rooms from the nozzle. Now the search is slower and the purpose is moot! If you need a tether to the outside world use a rope/searchline. Not only are they easier to deploy, but they can be "marked" to tell you how far in you are and which way is out.

  14. #14
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    Talking

    This is the way I learned it at my academy. Adjust for bulding type and size.
    1. Size up, secure water source
    2. Vertical vent and ladder the bulding. Cut the hole and get off the roof
    3. Search team (both for victims and fire location)
    4. Remove victim.
    5. Inform engine company, hose team and the ic , the location of fire
    6. Hose team to fire and open up
    7. Truck company horizontal vent fire room(take out doors and windows)
    8. Remove hose teams when fires out.
    9. Quick resize up, start overhaul, account for all team members
    10. Pack up and go home.

  15. #15
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    I used a hose line on a roof one time.

    Of course it was to drown and contain a taxpayer fire from the uninvolved structure. But I used a hose line off a roof

    Personally, if you are searching for victims a hose line will delay your search to the point where you might only get to 1/2 the structure. If searching for fire, I guess bring it.

    I choose to operate without it while looking for victims. Teach your firefighters how to use a 2 1/2 gallon water can properly and that is all a search team should need in many cases.
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    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedawg View Post
    This is the way I learned it at my academy. Adjust for bulding type and size.
    1. Size up, secure water source
    2. Vertical vent and ladder the bulding. Cut the hole and get off the roof
    3. Search team (both for victims and fire location)
    4. Remove victim.
    5. Inform engine company, hose team and the ic , the location of fire
    6. Hose team to fire and open up
    7. Truck company horizontal vent fire room(take out doors and windows)
    8. Remove hose teams when fires out.
    9. Quick resize up, start overhaul, account for all team members
    10. Pack up and go home.
    These kind of ridiculous checklists are what gets us in trouble. While most of this list may be correct for many fires, it can be all wrong for others.
    What if you pull up and have someone hanging out a window then #4 is now #1. #2 is is my biggest complaint. Many FD's feel vertical vent is part of any action plan for any structure. What if its a basement fire in a two or more story?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Department SOP requires that search teams have a 1.75" line with them. The purpose is to give them both a tether to the outside and allow them to fight fire should they find it. A hoseline to the roof is not required by SOP, but recommended while operating on the roofs of commercial structures.

    My previous department had the same policy regarding search teams, and a similiar policy regarding roof operations.
    Why are departments confusing the purpose of searching?

    If a chief sends men into a building for a search...they should not as LA puts it..."Fight fire should they find it". They should contain it as best as they can...and move on to an area where living people might be.

    If they are fighting the fire...they most certainly aren't doing what they were told to do and that is search. This is evidence of poor tactics and poor disipline...reinforced by those with little experience but plenty of authority.

    Call for a line, give the Engine the location and contiune on with your assigned responsiblities...search for fire and most importantly life!

    A persons view point on this issue is a direct representation of their experience and the experience level of those who taught them during their career.

    And I don't believe for a second that manpower plays a role...if you have enough manpower to assign members to search...then that implies you have sufficent men for a handline. It takes what??? 3 men on a handline(many of you probably do it with less) and 2 to search..one chief and one pump operator. 6 or 7 men...anyone can't muster that number shouldn't be going interior...but then again...some of you probably relish in the thought of not being anywhere near the inside of a burning building.

    To think we have progressed this far....the best gear...the best Masks...the best training (it is out there if you haven't taken the opportunity to get it) and men who wetted their bushy moustaches and took a feed were more effective 50 years ago...than many departments today...I would say it appears we have actually regressed as an institution!

    To think under normal search conditions that firemen need a handline...this is nothing less than unproffesional lazyness and can only be corrected with dedication, effort, drilling and something that is apparently in short supply these days (at least in LA) Balls.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 06-08-2007 at 07:59 PM.

  18. #18
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    FFFred...

    We may not always agree but when you nail it Brother, you nail it. I was going to type a response to this post but there is no point now. Anyone searching using a hoseline needs to read this, memorize it and stop the foolishness of encumbering the search team with a hoseline.

    Beautiful, just freaking beautiful.

    FyredUp

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Why are departments confusing the purpose of searching?

    If a chief sends men into a building for a search...they should not as LA puts it..."Fight fire should they find it". They should contain it as best as they can...and move on to an area where living people might be.

    If they are fighting the fire...they most certainly aren't doing what they were told to do and that is search. This is evidence of poor tactics and poor disipline...reinforced by those with little experience but plenty of authority.

    Call for a line, give the Engine the location and contiune on with your assigned responsiblities...search for fire and most importantly life!

    A persons view point on this issue is a direct representation of their experience and the experience level of those who taught them during their career.

    And I don't believe for a second that manpower plays a role...if you have enough manpower to assign members to search...then that implies you have sufficent men for a handline. It takes what??? 3 men on a handline(many of you probably do it with less) and 2 to search..one chief and one pump operator. 6 or 7 men...anyone can't muster that number shouldn't be going interior...but then again...some of you probably relish in the thought of not being anywhere near the inside of a burning building.

    To think we have progressed this far....the best gear...the best Masks...the best training (it is out there if you haven't taken the opportunity to get it) and men who wetted their bushy moustaches and took a feed were more effective 50 years ago...than many departments today...I would say it appears we have actually regressed as an institution!

    To think under normal search conditions that firemen need a handline...this is nothing less than unproffesional lazyness and can only be corrected with dedication, effort, drilling and something that is apparently in short supply these days (at least in LA) Balls.

    FTM-PTB

  19. #19
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    double post!!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-08-2007 at 09:06 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    FFFred...

    I was going to type a response to this post but there is no point now.
    FyredUp
    And I was going to type one to FFFred, but (it seems to be going around on this thread) yours will do just fine (although I almost always agree with fffred! ).

    What the hell is going on around this country!?!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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