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    Default Doing search and vent with a hose

    My dept's Ops Chief has the opinion that we should have an uncharged hose with us if we're doing primary search and the vent crew should have a charged hose on the roof for protection. Most of us crew members don't agree and I'm curious to see what response I can get from any of you forum members as to whether or not you agree with using the hose in those situations. I realize you shouldn't be on the roof long enough to need a hose for protection and that a hose will drastically reduce your speed during a search. Thanks.

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    What does he propose the crew on the roof do with that hose? Hang onto it if you slide off the other side?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    We do neither with a hoseline. Rescue and/or the truck do searches all the time with no charged or uncharged hoseline. The truck vents without a hoseline, although the bucket does have a very short length of 1.75" in it,I have never seen it used. Primary searches are supposed to be done quickly, and venting as quick as possible, then get off the roof.

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    Taking a hose up on a roof to vent? Oh boy, with all of us being understaffed, yeah we will get right on top of that. What does he expect you to do with it once it's up there? I feel it would get in the way and cause just antoher hazard that we would have to worry about tripping on or even tripping and falling off the roof. I don't know. I could even picture someone cutting it with the saw or something as well. Hopefully you can talk your chie out of this. Good luck.

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    No way on either. Get up cut the hole and get off,takes the heat off the primary search guys and they can see what their doing. Primary search is quick but good with a set of irons. Big rooms add a search rope. Its not rocket science.

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    Taking a line during search only slows you down as you have to drag it all over. I don't know what type of buildings you have. But if you were to search the top floor of a 4-story, who's going to lug 5-6-7 lengths of hose? Don't forget you have to get all the way into each and every apartment if possible, then backtrack.
    On the roof, protection from mosquitos??(I know he means fire) I've spent many years in areas with 2 and 3 story frames, most are attached. 3 -5 -10 in a row, a whole block long. A line never was a priority. Carry tools, not a line. Cut your hole, trench if need be, make sure you've done a complete job, then get off.

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    I agree that neither should be done with a hose!

    Protection on the roof? The most likely thing that would happen is some nut would stick it into the vent hole, thinking he'll help knock down some fire and cook the guys inside.

    Search with a line? Try it some time. I'll bet you'll only do it once.
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    My dept's Ops Chief has the opinion
    Nothing wrong with having an opinion. Not going to find too many people that will agree with his opinion, but he has one.

    Our search teams do not bring hose with them. Our vent "team" do not take hose with them. Our roof man does not take a hose with him either.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    You might be surprised that the tactic of advancing a charged line to the roof prior to venting is being taught quit a bit lately. I have seen many training videos in recent years that demonstrate a crew on the ladder with the handline, with the intent to "protect" the vent crew from smoke/flame. My thoughts are that it would be more of an obstruction, or even a hazard that could knock a disoriented FF into the hole, or off the roof. Not to mention the hazards of winter ops.

    IMHO, it is a waste of already stretched manpower, and will do little help in the event of a collapse or violent breach. The idea that it can be used to aid the ventilation efforts via venturi effect is somewhat valid, but is it really necessary or useful???

    I guess it is another tool, but I just can't ever see having the resources to do it, even if I had the inclination.
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    I have to disagree with the Chief.... Dragging a hose line during search will only slow you down and get extangled in the Crap people have in the house.... As for the roof, If you need protection on the roof, get off... Having a handline on the roof only gives them the oportunity to put the wet stuff on the red stuff. From the roof, Bad idea, not down the vent hole..... Let the vent crew vent, they shouldn't be putting them selves in the possition of needing the protection, if so then their vent is working..... Not being a truckie, I have to look out for the engine co.. If im inside and someone puts the line in the hole, whoever did it is going to get their ***** kicked when I get out.......If you are doing the search inconjunction fire attack (staffing issue) then yes have the handline....Just my two Cents
    Be SAFE!!! Go home when your shift is done and enjoy life.
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    ^^^^ Excellent point ^^^^

    If you are standing on the roof of any modern building and you need to spray water on something that badly, you should probably get the hell off the roof.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Department SOP requires that search teams have a 1.75" line with them. The purpose is to give them both a tether to the outside and allow them to fight fire should they find it. A hoseline to the roof is not required by SOP, but recommended while operating on the roofs of commercial structures.

    My previous department had the same policy regarding search teams, and a similiar policy regarding roof operations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell View Post
    The idea that it can be used to aid the ventilation efforts via venturi effect is somewhat valid, but is it really necessary or useful???
    I'd note that if you need to use a Venturi effect to get he smoke up and out you either didn't need the vent or placed it wrong.

    We do not send a hose to the roof or on search. As mentioned the hose to the roof will slow the firefighters escape. Done right, there is very little danger of being engulfed when popping the hole in the roof. I'm more concerned with guys who wear their masks on the roof who can't see through the fogged up lense. This is how people fall into holes or walk of the edges. Between the pack on your back, the angle of a pitched roof, the fogged mask, swing and axe or using a saw you have a firefighter who is not when balanced. In the last two academies I've been involved with we find that more and more students have never even stepped foot on a roof or started a saw. It takes them ten times as much practice to be comfortable on a roof, nevermind wearing an SCBA too.

    Sorry that went a little of topic. We also do not send a search crew with a line. This will slow the crew drastically. If we have to have 3-4 guys to make an effective stretch to the fire because we need coupling popped around doorways and someone at the 3rd 90 degree turn, how in hell can we search with a charged line, and the uncharged line being stretched without taking the time to ensure it doesn't fetch up or get caught under a door will be useless when the water stops three rooms from the nozzle. Now the search is slower and the purpose is moot! If you need a tether to the outside world use a rope/searchline. Not only are they easier to deploy, but they can be "marked" to tell you how far in you are and which way is out.

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    This is the way I learned it at my academy. Adjust for bulding type and size.
    1. Size up, secure water source
    2. Vertical vent and ladder the bulding. Cut the hole and get off the roof
    3. Search team (both for victims and fire location)
    4. Remove victim.
    5. Inform engine company, hose team and the ic , the location of fire
    6. Hose team to fire and open up
    7. Truck company horizontal vent fire room(take out doors and windows)
    8. Remove hose teams when fires out.
    9. Quick resize up, start overhaul, account for all team members
    10. Pack up and go home.

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    I used a hose line on a roof one time.

    Of course it was to drown and contain a taxpayer fire from the uninvolved structure. But I used a hose line off a roof

    Personally, if you are searching for victims a hose line will delay your search to the point where you might only get to 1/2 the structure. If searching for fire, I guess bring it.

    I choose to operate without it while looking for victims. Teach your firefighters how to use a 2 1/2 gallon water can properly and that is all a search team should need in many cases.
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    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rescuedawg View Post
    This is the way I learned it at my academy. Adjust for bulding type and size.
    1. Size up, secure water source
    2. Vertical vent and ladder the bulding. Cut the hole and get off the roof
    3. Search team (both for victims and fire location)
    4. Remove victim.
    5. Inform engine company, hose team and the ic , the location of fire
    6. Hose team to fire and open up
    7. Truck company horizontal vent fire room(take out doors and windows)
    8. Remove hose teams when fires out.
    9. Quick resize up, start overhaul, account for all team members
    10. Pack up and go home.
    These kind of ridiculous checklists are what gets us in trouble. While most of this list may be correct for many fires, it can be all wrong for others.
    What if you pull up and have someone hanging out a window then #4 is now #1. #2 is is my biggest complaint. Many FD's feel vertical vent is part of any action plan for any structure. What if its a basement fire in a two or more story?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Department SOP requires that search teams have a 1.75" line with them. The purpose is to give them both a tether to the outside and allow them to fight fire should they find it. A hoseline to the roof is not required by SOP, but recommended while operating on the roofs of commercial structures.

    My previous department had the same policy regarding search teams, and a similiar policy regarding roof operations.
    Why are departments confusing the purpose of searching?

    If a chief sends men into a building for a search...they should not as LA puts it..."Fight fire should they find it". They should contain it as best as they can...and move on to an area where living people might be.

    If they are fighting the fire...they most certainly aren't doing what they were told to do and that is search. This is evidence of poor tactics and poor disipline...reinforced by those with little experience but plenty of authority.

    Call for a line, give the Engine the location and contiune on with your assigned responsiblities...search for fire and most importantly life!

    A persons view point on this issue is a direct representation of their experience and the experience level of those who taught them during their career.

    And I don't believe for a second that manpower plays a role...if you have enough manpower to assign members to search...then that implies you have sufficent men for a handline. It takes what??? 3 men on a handline(many of you probably do it with less) and 2 to search..one chief and one pump operator. 6 or 7 men...anyone can't muster that number shouldn't be going interior...but then again...some of you probably relish in the thought of not being anywhere near the inside of a burning building.

    To think we have progressed this far....the best gear...the best Masks...the best training (it is out there if you haven't taken the opportunity to get it) and men who wetted their bushy moustaches and took a feed were more effective 50 years ago...than many departments today...I would say it appears we have actually regressed as an institution!

    To think under normal search conditions that firemen need a handline...this is nothing less than unproffesional lazyness and can only be corrected with dedication, effort, drilling and something that is apparently in short supply these days (at least in LA) Balls.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 06-08-2007 at 08:59 PM.

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    FFFred...

    We may not always agree but when you nail it Brother, you nail it. I was going to type a response to this post but there is no point now. Anyone searching using a hoseline needs to read this, memorize it and stop the foolishness of encumbering the search team with a hoseline.

    Beautiful, just freaking beautiful.

    FyredUp

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Why are departments confusing the purpose of searching?

    If a chief sends men into a building for a search...they should not as LA puts it..."Fight fire should they find it". They should contain it as best as they can...and move on to an area where living people might be.

    If they are fighting the fire...they most certainly aren't doing what they were told to do and that is search. This is evidence of poor tactics and poor disipline...reinforced by those with little experience but plenty of authority.

    Call for a line, give the Engine the location and contiune on with your assigned responsiblities...search for fire and most importantly life!

    A persons view point on this issue is a direct representation of their experience and the experience level of those who taught them during their career.

    And I don't believe for a second that manpower plays a role...if you have enough manpower to assign members to search...then that implies you have sufficent men for a handline. It takes what??? 3 men on a handline(many of you probably do it with less) and 2 to search..one chief and one pump operator. 6 or 7 men...anyone can't muster that number shouldn't be going interior...but then again...some of you probably relish in the thought of not being anywhere near the inside of a burning building.

    To think we have progressed this far....the best gear...the best Masks...the best training (it is out there if you haven't taken the opportunity to get it) and men who wetted their bushy moustaches and took a feed were more effective 50 years ago...than many departments today...I would say it appears we have actually regressed as an institution!

    To think under normal search conditions that firemen need a handline...this is nothing less than unproffesional lazyness and can only be corrected with dedication, effort, drilling and something that is apparently in short supply these days (at least in LA) Balls.

    FTM-PTB

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    double post!!
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-08-2007 at 10:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    FFFred...

    I was going to type a response to this post but there is no point now.
    FyredUp
    And I was going to type one to FFFred, but (it seems to be going around on this thread) yours will do just fine (although I almost always agree with fffred! ).

    What the hell is going on around this country!?!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    its a disgrace whats being done to the fire service. Along with the NFPA gods, our job has gone from doing it and getting it done to not being able to do it since we might break a nail.

    Granted, I love being safe. But, come on people. The job of searching is to find the people trapped, locate the fire, isolate it until the hose team gets there... You dont need a handline, an aircraft tanker and two hoods to search for a vic.

    If I have to hump several hundred feet of 1 3/4 through a 3000sq ft house while searching for a vic, i'll be worn out by the time I find them.

    Plus, I dont like playing truck company. I'd rather put the fire out than roll around in the ash to look like I did something

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    And I was going to type one to FFFred, but (it seems to be going around on this thread) yours will do just fine (although I almost always agree with fffred! ).

    What the hell is going on around this country!?!
    I would love to attempt to answer your simple but poignant question.

    And while I could wax philosophical for hours on this topic let me see if I can simplify my answer down to a few sentences.

    Regulations brought on by fear of liability has paralyzed some fire departments and forced them to destroy the good practices of aggressive firefighting that have been the standard for decades. Some so called leaders in the fire service have taken the banner of safety and pushed it so far that it has reached the point of ridiculousness. When we refuse to even attempt rescues (where others have clearly said they would at least make an attempt) and when we right off buildings on the assumption that everyone is out(because a panicked by stander or family member says so or we decide the building looks vacant), my opinion is some places have simply lost their way.

    Now don't get me wrong firefighter safety is an important part of the job. But there is simply no way to make this job 100% safe and if that is what you want it is time to look for a different career or a different organization to volunteer for. It is dangerous to fight fire, it is dangerous to enter a building to do search for victims, it is dangerous to go onto a roof and ventilate, but we did join the fire department aware of these risks and frankly if that isn't what you thought this was about what were you thinking it is about? A t-shirt? A jacket? An annual party? What?

    Now having said that while we accept the danger this does not mean we are reckless or suicidal in our approach to the job. We use our skills. knowledge and experience. There in lies another problem though. Some officers, some fire service leaders, are terribly inexperienced and simply do not have the knowledge or time in grade to make smart decisions. How do they learn? Through actual fires, but today you can take classes from firefighters that DO have the experience and time in grade and the knowledge to share with you, to teach you. Is the classroom as good as the real world? No, it isn't. But face it, many places are hard pressed to see a working fire a cycle.

    Okay rant off....

    FyredUp

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    Every time one of these topics comes up, there is always one (and usually more than one) reply that just leaves me dumbfounded. I'm not claiming to have that much time or experience, but Jesus! This job isn't that hard. While tactics, micro-moves, and BS like ICS or rig color can be debated all day long, this question is so fundemental to this job that to even discuss it seems flatout wrong! If you are waiting for a line to search and then dragging it around with you, you are doing it WRONG! If you are bringing a line to the roof for venting as a normal part of your operations - you are doing it wrong! To discuss something so basic as this is like arguing whether water is good or bad! "150 years of tradition unimpeded by progress" - or whatever that horse***** saying is - should read "150 years of experience and good solid tactics being destroyed by sissies and cowards!" I mean, come on! Everyone is for safety - everyone. No one I have ever met wants to get hurt or killed needlessly. That said, where we seem to have lost it is that not everyone is for putting out the goddamn fire and saving lives and property in a timely fashion! Safety has trumped the job!

    To think we have progressed this far....the best gear...the best Masks...the best training (it is out there if you haven't taken the opportunity to get it) and men who wetted their bushy moustaches and took a feed were more effective 50 years ago...than many departments today...I would say it appears we have actually regressed as an institution!
    Well said FFFred. Everyone wants to talk about how "deep" they can get or how well they are encapsulated, or how fanatic they are about safety and then in the next sentance almost brag about not doing their job! Whats the f'in point!!!!!! We are not curing cancer. We are not engineering dams or bridges. We are draging hose, cutting roofs, kicking in doors, venting and advancing lines. If you are not up to it, thats fine, but please don't try and drag me down to your level and compare yourself to guys who have no qualms about doing what it takes to do their jobs.


    Regulations brought on by fear of liability has paralyzed some fire departments and forced them to destroy the good practices of aggressive firefighting that have been the standard for decades. Some so called leaders in the fire service have taken the banner of safety and pushed it so far that it has reached the point of ridiculousness.
    I think you are dead on. It's frustrating to watch, and even more frustrating to hear it defended here by so-called firemen. Enough already.

    Rant off.
    Last edited by ChicagoFF; 06-08-2007 at 11:56 PM.
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    Here's how I see a big part of the problem...

    Inexperienced leaders and their accompanying, irrational sense of fear due to that lack of experience, inevitably begets poor judgment, poor tactics and an overall poor knowledge of basic firefighting skills. This is then passed along successively to each new generation of rookies as they receive their training from the increasingly inexperienced "senior" guys.

    The combination of these poor firefighting skills and the fact that many places are seeing fewer and fewer actual fires, begets an air of even greater fear of firefighters being injured.
    As this fear level increases, so does the (excessive) concern for firefighter safety. Inexperienced leaders then resort to the application of much weaker and far less aggressive firefighting practices and tactics, thinking they will reduce the possibility of firefighter injury, all under the guise of increasing firefighter safety. While this may indeed prevent firefighter injuries, it comes at one hell of a price.

    That price, tragically, is paid by the public. Their risk of dieing in a fire, or loosing everything that they own is possibly greater now than it ever has been. Not because of an increase in the frequency of structure fires, but because of an increase in the number of fire departments that actually fear firefighting like never before.

    In some places, it is apparently not uncommon for a room and contents fire upon arrival of the first unit, to end up becoming a surround-and-drown total loss, without a line ever being deployed to the interior, or a search ever having been conducted. All because of the irrational fear of someone actually putting themselves in any kind of danger in order to do this job correctly!

    Aggressive, proactive and offensive firefighting tactics and strategies are viewed by the inexperienced, overly safety conscious (so-called) fire departments and their leaders as being far too risky and not worth exposing anyone to the inherent associated dangers. It is much better for them to recover charred bodies from the ashes after the fire has been put out with the deck gun, than to risk sending crews inside to actually put out the fire and rescue victims while they're still alive.
    Last edited by fireman4949; 06-09-2007 at 12:36 AM.
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    • Take the fire first - before interior S&R
    • Isolate or confine the fire where necessary
    • Operate primary fire attack & interior search together where staffing allows
    • Ensure the primary attack line is able to control (suppress) or 'hold' the fire
    • Search for confirmed occupants only unless you have a hose-line with you
    • Searching ahead without water is ok where the above rules are followed
    • Searching on floors ABOVE the fire should have a hose-line on the floor for protection
    • where staffing is inadequate don't take chances with your life!
    Last edited by PaulGRIMWOOD; 06-09-2007 at 07:55 AM.

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