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  1. #21
    Forum Member Hazmat91180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    If that was sickening, I don't think the truck is going to be your cup of tea.
    Perhaps "sickening" was a little strong, but certainly I believe poor execution.


  2. #22
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    Hazmat no real personal problems just the fact that it is a big trip hazard and awkward to work on, also if you are going to use it for safety then there should be a second ladder for the other side of the hole to stand on. If it's a deep pitch then yes I just may use it or go off the main of the truck or of its rainy or snowy but most of the time I am on a roof I am at the peak making my cut.

  3. #23
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    I gotta say the most dangerous thing I saw in the video are firefighters breathing air on the roof! Reduced visiblity and poor balance will cause injury or death too. In fact I'll bet we have more close calls from these causes than smoke or fire engulfment on the roof.

    But, I guess I'd agree that on my job that roof wouldn't have been cut at all, unless there is something we just don't know. The fire looks nicely vented out the window and there isn't much or any smoke condition anywhere else, winodws or soffits.

    Since we're on their case anyway, I guess I'd be unhappy with my guys using their hands to remove roof materials. Pretty obvious the guys up there weren't expecting any heat, smoke or flame, so why make the cut? Orders I guess? But given the Fisher Price hook they had maybe they resort to what works. These guys get a lot of work, they ought to have a real roof hook! In all maybe a little disapointing show for HFD, but we all have off days.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallagher4663 View Post
    Check out this video and tell me if you see any reason to cut a hole?
    ...Is there a reason? Yes

    With 20/20 "hind sight"...Maybe No.

    With fire on 2nd floor of 2 story wood frame and "possible" fire in the attic with FFs entering the structure to put fire out...Yes I would send crews to the roof.

    If that fire "took off" or if there was more than what we see in the video clip I think that venting the roof is the right thing to do. Sometimes if there is a "little question" as to whether or not we vent or not I say go ahead and do it. In this case what harm did it do vs what good could it have done???

    I am not going to comment on the skill level here just on whether or not venting should have taken place.

  5. #25
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    We always send guys to the roof, but that doesnt mean they cut a hole. There are plenty of natural openings in the roof that can generate verticle ventilation without the need to cut. They can also reach down and vent upper floor windows with their hook.

    Ummm, if youre not cutting above the fire, why are you cutting at all?

    Not much came out of the hole, so in hindsight, I would say there wasnt a reason to cut. But, I wasnt there. I see only a few minutes of time from a single low angle. Im sure the fellas from Houston fight enough fire to know what needs to be done.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  6. #26
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    There are some good training points that can be learned from almost any job we work. This one is no different. However, without having all of the facts, or better yet actually operate at this job don't be quick to judge. Who knows what these guys were ordered to do or what some inflexible procedure required. People who live in glass firehouses...

  7. #27
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    it seemed to me they had plenty of man power,so why use them to make the inside job as safe as possible!!

  8. #28
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    If that one bothered you, watch this one!

    http://www.thebravestonline.com/VentJob19.html

    Personally, maybe I'm too safety conscious, but I would never expect anyone to be on a roof in these conditions-especially a dump of a building like this.

  9. #29
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    and yet, look how much better conditions were after they vented.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    If that one bothered you, watch this one!

    http://www.thebravestonline.com/VentJob19.html

    Personally, maybe I'm too safety conscious, but I would never expect anyone to be on a roof in these conditions-especially a dump of a building like this.
    GREAT JOB...That shows why you DO vent. It also shows why you need to be prepared to get up there and get it done fast.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    If that one bothered you, watch this one!

    http://www.thebravestonline.com/VentJob19.html

    Personally, maybe I'm too safety conscious, but I would never expect anyone to be on a roof in these conditions-especially a dump of a building like this.

    It may be a dump of a building, but it's still someone's home. And I can just about guarantee they don't have a homeowner's policy.

    You ought to see my first due...That would be considered "middle class".
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  12. #32
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949 View Post
    It may be a dump of a building, but it's still someone's home. And I can just about guarantee they don't have a homeowner's policy.

    You ought to see my first due...That would be considered "middle class".
    I agree, the vent was effective-but was there any chance of survivable victims in there? Risk vs benefit.

    I agree with the tactic, just not under the conditions in the video. Of course, the safety of the tactic increases with experience in similar circumstances-and I don't believe that the majority of my dept has the experience to accomplish that task safely under those conditions. I'm sure Houston's a lot more experienced, and their risk-benfit analysis took that into account.

    The "dump" comment was not meant as a comment on their lifestyle, but the condition of the building and its apparent state of (no) maintenance. And with the conditions, what's the chance on anything in that house being worth salvaging? They would be better off with donations from the Red Cross and Salvation Army. I will risk a little to save someones belongings-but their possessions aren't worth a FF's life.

  13. #33
    Forum Member fireman4949's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    I agree, the vent was effective-but was there any chance of survivable victims in there? Risk vs benefit.

    I agree with the tactic, just not under the conditions in the video. Of course, the safety of the tactic increases with experience in similar circumstances-and I don't believe that the majority of my dept has the experience to accomplish that task safely under those conditions. I'm sure Houston's a lot more experienced, and their risk-benfit analysis took that into account.

    The "dump" comment was not meant as a comment on their lifestyle, but the condition of the building and its apparent state of (no) maintenance. And with the conditions, what's the chance on anything in that house being worth salvaging? They would be better off with donations from the Red Cross and Salvation Army. I will risk a little to save someones belongings-but their possessions aren't worth a FF's life.
    I agree that no person's possessions are worth a life. And the chance of survivability of anyone (victims) still inside was probably remote, at best. That doesn't mean we (firefighters) have to stand by and let the house burn to the ground.
    I didn't see where anyone was in any great peril cutting that roof. It was smoky, yes. But did not appear so dangerous as to refrain from applying good firefighting ventilation tactics, which I'm sure included a decent survey of the roof's condition prior to cutting, which will then allow for a safer interior attack on the fire.

    I understood what you meant by your "dump" comment. As I said, it's very likely all they have, and very likely have no way of replacing it.
    We will always do all we can to save what is left...That's our job. Rich or poor, we protect 'em all!
    My station's first due is contains the poorest section of town. We see a lot of these types of structure fires.
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  14. #34
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    I agree, the vent was effective-but was there any chance of survivable victims in there? Risk vs benefit.

    I agree with the tactic, just not under the conditions in the video. Of course, the safety of the tactic increases with experience in similar circumstances-and I don't believe that the majority of my dept has the experience to accomplish that task safely under those conditions. I'm sure Houston's a lot more experienced, and their risk-benfit analysis took that into account.

    The "dump" comment was not meant as a comment on their lifestyle, but the condition of the building and its apparent state of (no) maintenance. And with the conditions, what's the chance on anything in that house being worth salvaging? They would be better off with donations from the Red Cross and Salvation Army. I will risk a little to save someones belongings-but their possessions aren't worth a FF's life.

    Thats not the reason I was taught for vertical ventilation. Everything the truck does, from forcing entry, vertical ventilation, horizontal ventilation, and "opening up" are all to assist the engine. Vertical ventilation takes place because once we are on scene....there are possible victims inside. Us. In cases where vertical ventilation is needed, its used to support confinement and extinguishment of the fire, which in turn will help alleviate search issues inside. "Make the building behave"!
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Thats not the reason I was taught for vertical ventilation. Everything the truck does, from forcing entry, vertical ventilation, horizontal ventilation, and "opening up" are all to assist the engine. Vertical ventilation takes place because once we are on scene....there are possible victims inside. Us. In cases where vertical ventilation is needed, its used to support confinement and extinguishment of the fire, which in turn will help alleviate search issues inside. "Make the building behave"!
    boy,you sure hit the head on that nail (nice)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

  16. #36
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    Is that why they call truck guys "Firemen's Helpers"?

  17. #37
    MembersZone Subscriber CHIEF500's Avatar
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    Not a cut I would have seen made. They had good horizontal ventilation going. Companies were in operating without to much trouble it seems.
    ex Chief 500

  18. #38
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Anyone that can't see the advantage of vertically ventilating this fire wasn't watching the same video I was. From a home that was boiling smoke out of everywhere to a place that cleared up in a matter of minutes after the hole was cut. This could be a video used to teach why we vertically vent.

    Nice job.

    FyredUp

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gallagher4663 View Post
    To me there is absolutely ZERO reason to cut a hole here. Poor tactics.
    Of course you would think that...you have some kind of un-defined axe to grind with Houston. Is Fort Worth, TX really that much better than Houston?

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=91118

  20. #40
    Forum Member johnny46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    I agree, the vent was effective-but was there any chance of survivable victims in there? Risk vs benefit.
    Yes.
    I have to lengthen the message to 10 characters because Firehouse does not appreciate succinct answers.

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