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    There are some good training points that can be learned from almost any job we work. This one is no different. However, without having all of the facts, or better yet actually operate at this job don't be quick to judge. Who knows what these guys were ordered to do or what some inflexible procedure required. People who live in glass firehouses...

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    it seemed to me they had plenty of man power,so why use them to make the inside job as safe as possible!!

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    If that one bothered you, watch this one!

    http://www.thebravestonline.com/VentJob19.html

    Personally, maybe I'm too safety conscious, but I would never expect anyone to be on a roof in these conditions-especially a dump of a building like this.

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    and yet, look how much better conditions were after they vented.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    If that one bothered you, watch this one!

    http://www.thebravestonline.com/VentJob19.html

    Personally, maybe I'm too safety conscious, but I would never expect anyone to be on a roof in these conditions-especially a dump of a building like this.
    GREAT JOB...That shows why you DO vent. It also shows why you need to be prepared to get up there and get it done fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    If that one bothered you, watch this one!

    http://www.thebravestonline.com/VentJob19.html

    Personally, maybe I'm too safety conscious, but I would never expect anyone to be on a roof in these conditions-especially a dump of a building like this.

    It may be a dump of a building, but it's still someone's home. And I can just about guarantee they don't have a homeowner's policy.

    You ought to see my first due...That would be considered "middle class".
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949 View Post
    It may be a dump of a building, but it's still someone's home. And I can just about guarantee they don't have a homeowner's policy.

    You ought to see my first due...That would be considered "middle class".
    I agree, the vent was effective-but was there any chance of survivable victims in there? Risk vs benefit.

    I agree with the tactic, just not under the conditions in the video. Of course, the safety of the tactic increases with experience in similar circumstances-and I don't believe that the majority of my dept has the experience to accomplish that task safely under those conditions. I'm sure Houston's a lot more experienced, and their risk-benfit analysis took that into account.

    The "dump" comment was not meant as a comment on their lifestyle, but the condition of the building and its apparent state of (no) maintenance. And with the conditions, what's the chance on anything in that house being worth salvaging? They would be better off with donations from the Red Cross and Salvation Army. I will risk a little to save someones belongings-but their possessions aren't worth a FF's life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    I agree, the vent was effective-but was there any chance of survivable victims in there? Risk vs benefit.

    I agree with the tactic, just not under the conditions in the video. Of course, the safety of the tactic increases with experience in similar circumstances-and I don't believe that the majority of my dept has the experience to accomplish that task safely under those conditions. I'm sure Houston's a lot more experienced, and their risk-benfit analysis took that into account.

    The "dump" comment was not meant as a comment on their lifestyle, but the condition of the building and its apparent state of (no) maintenance. And with the conditions, what's the chance on anything in that house being worth salvaging? They would be better off with donations from the Red Cross and Salvation Army. I will risk a little to save someones belongings-but their possessions aren't worth a FF's life.
    I agree that no person's possessions are worth a life. And the chance of survivability of anyone (victims) still inside was probably remote, at best. That doesn't mean we (firefighters) have to stand by and let the house burn to the ground.
    I didn't see where anyone was in any great peril cutting that roof. It was smoky, yes. But did not appear so dangerous as to refrain from applying good firefighting ventilation tactics, which I'm sure included a decent survey of the roof's condition prior to cutting, which will then allow for a safer interior attack on the fire.

    I understood what you meant by your "dump" comment. As I said, it's very likely all they have, and very likely have no way of replacing it.
    We will always do all we can to save what is left...That's our job. Rich or poor, we protect 'em all!
    My station's first due is contains the poorest section of town. We see a lot of these types of structure fires.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    I agree, the vent was effective-but was there any chance of survivable victims in there? Risk vs benefit.

    I agree with the tactic, just not under the conditions in the video. Of course, the safety of the tactic increases with experience in similar circumstances-and I don't believe that the majority of my dept has the experience to accomplish that task safely under those conditions. I'm sure Houston's a lot more experienced, and their risk-benfit analysis took that into account.

    The "dump" comment was not meant as a comment on their lifestyle, but the condition of the building and its apparent state of (no) maintenance. And with the conditions, what's the chance on anything in that house being worth salvaging? They would be better off with donations from the Red Cross and Salvation Army. I will risk a little to save someones belongings-but their possessions aren't worth a FF's life.

    Thats not the reason I was taught for vertical ventilation. Everything the truck does, from forcing entry, vertical ventilation, horizontal ventilation, and "opening up" are all to assist the engine. Vertical ventilation takes place because once we are on scene....there are possible victims inside. Us. In cases where vertical ventilation is needed, its used to support confinement and extinguishment of the fire, which in turn will help alleviate search issues inside. "Make the building behave"!
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Thats not the reason I was taught for vertical ventilation. Everything the truck does, from forcing entry, vertical ventilation, horizontal ventilation, and "opening up" are all to assist the engine. Vertical ventilation takes place because once we are on scene....there are possible victims inside. Us. In cases where vertical ventilation is needed, its used to support confinement and extinguishment of the fire, which in turn will help alleviate search issues inside. "Make the building behave"!
    boy,you sure hit the head on that nail (nice)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Is that why they call truck guys "Firemen's Helpers"?

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    Not a cut I would have seen made. They had good horizontal ventilation going. Companies were in operating without to much trouble it seems.
    ex Chief 500

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    Anyone that can't see the advantage of vertically ventilating this fire wasn't watching the same video I was. From a home that was boiling smoke out of everywhere to a place that cleared up in a matter of minutes after the hole was cut. This could be a video used to teach why we vertically vent.

    Nice job.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by gallagher4663 View Post
    To me there is absolutely ZERO reason to cut a hole here. Poor tactics.
    Of course you would think that...you have some kind of un-defined axe to grind with Houston. Is Fort Worth, TX really that much better than Houston?

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=91118

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    I agree, the vent was effective-but was there any chance of survivable victims in there? Risk vs benefit.
    Yes.
    I have to lengthen the message to 10 characters because Firehouse does not appreciate succinct answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    Yes.
    I have to lengthen the message to 10 characters because Firehouse does not appreciate succinct answers.
    I have to say YES also...in this situation the best chance to save someone is with quick ventilation quick attack and quick search and rescue and to have firefighters that are not afraid to do their job...

    Where might you find a person alive...in the bathroom with door closed, in a bedroom with door closed or in the closet with door closed. Come on guys, there are MANY places that a kid and/or adult could be hiding from the fire in a house like this under these conditions and still be alive.

    Our job is to fight fires and save lives...not to stand around the outside and say that this place is to unsafe for me to enter. With GOOD tactics and training we can try to make it safe. One of the BEST ways to make these fires safe is to VENTILATE the roof. It needs to be done ASAP and if at all possible at the same time the attack line is going in. If you are a FF you need to know your equipment and you job. You must have the ability and the will to do that job. If ordered to the roof you must be able to get to the roof and cut your hole with in minutes and then get off. We need to learn how to do things safely but quickly.

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    Default You've got it right Matty

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    In NYC we rarely cut peaked roof PD's. It is not an initial tactic, as horizontal ventilation is most often sufficient. Even flat roof PD's or MD's do not get cut unless fire is directly under the roof boards, or in some cases an inspection hole might be cut if there is reason to suspect fire has entered the cockloft or attic. There are probably an average of four or five private dwelling fires daily in NYC, and I would say almost none are cut. I think many places cut, simply out of habit. Cutting should be done as a means of preventing horizontal fire spread, not simply to clear an attic space of residual smoke.
    Matty,

    You are exactly right. Most private dwellings can usually be vented horizontally. We have a lot of balloon frame structures, so we have the opportunity to also do a good amount of vertically venting.

    For the most part though, taking a couple of windows and performing, natural ventilation, hydraulic ventilation or (PPV, when appropriate), works well for us.

    However, I won't pass judgement on those in the video because I wasn't there. You just never know...

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