Is there a reason to cut a hole?

[gallagher4663]

Check out this video and tell me if you see any reason to cut a hole?






http://www.thebravestonline.com/Tower6VentJob.html

[TRUCK61]

While it may not have been needed because it looked like the horizontal venting was sufficent I think it was good that it was done. Now for the bad part. In the manner it was done though I do not agree with. If your'e going to spend the time bringing the roof ladder up ,which on that roof it really wasn't needed, then use it properly. Also why where they on the roof if they where not even prepared such as they where waiting for their third guy you know the one with the tool and then they still were not totally ready because the guy with no ppe had to bring up the rest of their tools. With that roof you should not need three guys on the roof anyway it's added weight so have the third guy stand on the extension ladder. Like I said before I don't like trashing other departments but it's because of things like this that we keep killing ourselves.

[WaterbryVTfire]

Hard to tell without seeing rest of the building. Is the garage attached? Looked there are a lot of exposures. So yeah maybe I would have...although I would have actually used the roof ladder as it was intended when it was placed.

[johnny46]

It's taking too long to load, but my guess is that the IC said to do it. If I get it to load, I'll take a look. The pumper chauffer used to work at 6's, so I'll ask him since he's still got some psychic link to them.

[dday05]

It's taking too long to load, but my guess is that the IC said to do it. If I get it to load, I'll take a look.

Same here!

[Chiefy]

OK. Lets go with the obvious. You do not need 3 FF to vent a house. NEVER remove any PPE while in the HOT ZONE. Do not ventilate directly over the seat of the fire, that will not draw the smoke away only give the flames access to the roof. The roof ladder was used for the supervisors(??!) not the axeman. And finally, stay the hell away from the power lines.



But I did enjoy the soundtrack. Maybe all fire should come with their own soundtracks. (besides swearing and broken radio communications)

[Bones42]

Do not ventilate directly over the seat of the fire

First I've seen someone say that. Isn't the idea to get all the hot and bad stuff up and out? If I cut the hole further away, won't the hot and bad stuff then want to travel over to that new opening as opposed to simply going straight up?

[cap6888]

Couldnt get it to load. I have watched other HFD videos. Maybe its the just the ones I have seen, but it looks like good, aggressive tactics in most. Maybe T6's assignment per SOP was to go to the roof and open up. In most HFD vids I've seen they always seem to have a truck go to the roof to vent it.
I remember being on a house fire one time, small cape cod type fire on second floor, in the knee walls, real hot. I was on the line and my OIC asked the Chief to open the roof. The chief never assigned anyone to do it, reason being, in his opinion you dont need to vent a roof on SFD's.

Stay Safe

[johnny46]

OK. Lets go with the obvious. You do not need 3 FF to vent a house. NEVER remove any PPE while in the HOT ZONE. Do not ventilate directly over the seat of the fire, that will not draw the smoke away only give the flames access to the roof. The roof ladder was used for the supervisors(??!) not the axeman. And finally, stay the hell away from the power lines.



But I did enjoy the soundtrack. Maybe all fire should come with their own soundtracks. (besides swearing and broken radio communications)

2 guys work, 1 guy just watches. That's 3 and it works pretty well.
I gotta go with the second within reason.
Heat goes up. That's generally the 'away' we need.
Supervisors weigh more than workers. Their brains are 3 times the size of their underlings. It's science.
I'm pretty sure those are telephone lines, but I haven't seen the video.

[Hazmat91180]

First I've seen someone say that. Isn't the idea to get all the hot and bad stuff up and out? If I cut the hole further away, won't the hot and bad stuff then want to travel over to that new opening as opposed to simply going straight up?

Agreed, I question that to, the idea is to ventilate directly over the seat of the fire to avoid extension.

And to the comment

If your'e going to spend the time bringing the roof ladder up ,which on that roof it really wasn't needed

The whole point to the roof ladder is stability on a roof, especially one that is showing flames directly beneath, right? That video was sickening and should go on closecalls.com

[RFDACM02]

I'm with Bones. Do not vent right over the seat? Another first for me. Please try and explain the logic here? I didn't what for the video, so I'm guessing the hole was not at the peak and this is your point?

[dday05]

Do not ventilate directly over the seat of the fire, that will not draw the smoke away only give the flames access to the roof.

I would like to hear your reasoning for this.

If you can put a hole almost over the fire that should reduce the chance of fire spreading through the house and that equals less fire damage.

[johnny46]

Watched the video.
Chiefy, those are telephone lines.

The whole point to the roof ladder is stability on a roof, especially one that is showing flames directly beneath, right? That video was sickening and should go on closecalls.com

Maybe if the flames were heavy or if the construction were different, you'd be right.

If that was sickening, I don't think the truck is going to be your cup of tea.

[TRUCK61]

HAZMAT no offense but the purpose of the roof ladder is to span from the peak to the sofet end and was designed when houses where stick built and not the crap truss construction which has no ridge. So on our stick built roof if for some reason the roof goes in and the ridge and sofet are still intact in theroy the ladder should still be there where as on a truss roof if the truss fails with there being no ridge everything goes in which defeats the purpose of the roof ladder also for personal reasons I think the roof ladder should not be used. When possible put the main to the peak walk the ridge and cut high and as soon as you're done cutting and push in the ceiling get off the roof. By not using the roof ladder when possible it allows you to feel the changes in the roof condition.

[fireman4949]

Do not ventilate directly over the seat of the fire, that will not draw the smoke away only give the flames access to the roof.

I've never heard this either.

I want the flames to have access to the roof. That reduces their access to me and my crew inside.

Venting a roof away from the seat of the fire will only spread the fire and smoke to more of the structure. Not a good thing.

[MattyJ]

In NYC we rarely cut peaked roof PD's. It is not an initial tactic, as horizontal ventilation is most often sufficient. Even flat roof PD's or MD's do not get cut unless fire is directly under the roof boards, or in some cases an inspection hole might be cut if there is reason to suspect fire has entered the cockloft or attic. There are probably an average of four or five private dwelling fires daily in NYC, and I would say almost none are cut. I think many places cut, simply out of habit. Cutting should be done as a means of preventing horizontal fire spread, not simply to clear an attic space of residual smoke.

[fireman4949]

I think many places cut, simply out of habit. Cutting should be done as a means of preventing horizontal fire spread, not simply to clear an attic space of residual smoke.

I completely agree.

[gallagher4663]

To me there is absolutely ZERO reason to cut a hole here. Poor tactics. As for Chiefy, your an idiot. Please tell me that you got that nickname when you were a kid and it's not your rank?

[Chiefy]

Loved the supervisor brain comment. And no I wasn't suggesting ventilating far away from the seat, vent saw's fine, it's fast, but an axe cut should be done just off from directly over the seat. Gives time to finish the hole before the fire comes up in your face and starts to remove the smoke from surrounding areas while your working.
And the ladder was a good fit for the roof for a span.
Good call on the wires, old eyes, small screen.
Still say there was absolutely no need for 3 on the roof.
After all is said and done, I don't think the roof vent was necessary.

[Hazmat91180]

HAZMAT no offense but the purpose of the roof ladder is to span from the peak to the sofet end and was designed when houses where stick built and not the crap truss construction which has no ridge. So on our stick built roof if for some reason the roof goes in and the ridge and sofet are still intact in theroy the ladder should still be there where as on a truss roof if the truss fails with there being no ridge everything goes in which defeats the purpose of the roof ladder also for personal reasons I think the roof ladder should not be used. When possible put the main to the peak walk the ridge and cut high and as soon as you're done cutting and push in the ceiling get off the roof. By not using the roof ladder when possible it allows you to feel the changes in the roof condition.

Well I completely agree that it is not as effective for a collapse in crap truss construction, there are more purposes, such as an effective footing for firefighters reaching the peak, which by the way you would be sounding the roof the entire time you are walking up the ladder. I understand where you are coming from, but am curious as to the "personal reason", perhaps a bad experience with it? To each his own I suppose, but for the time it takes to get that roof ladder up there, should it be used only 1 out of 100 times I think the benefits outweigh the risks/time.