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    Default The Usual Pre-Rant Question

    Did this place have smoke detectors or sprinklers?

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...0&sectionId=46

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Did this place have smoke detectors or sprinklers?

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...0&sectionId=46
    A neighbor went to check things out after hearing the station's alarm about 4:29 a.m. He called 9-1-1 after seeing flames.
    Wouldn't one logically "assume", for now, that statement about the station's alarm is referring to smoke detectors?

    Oh, and my thoughts are with the department during this undoubtedly trying time, and I'm thankful the firefighter mentioned wasn't injured.
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    Probably the burglar alarm activated due to the fire.

    Sure didn't have sprinklers George. Out of interest for you http://homesprinklers.fire.org.nz/
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    Sheri, that's what I thought when I read the first article. The second article seems to paint a different picture. Apparently, the alarm they are referring to is the fire siren, not a fire detection system. I just want to make sure I read it right before I go off.

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    From what we gathered while on standby at their other station I believe they did have smoke detectors in the station however it was not tied to any kind of monitoring system.
    George you are right ironically the siren had not gone off in 3-4 years.

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    If the first person to notice there was a problem was a neighbor seeing smoke and flames, then it is quite obvious there was no alarm system connected to a central station monitoring system.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Thumbs up Uh, Yeah.............

    I'll agree that whatever they had WASN'T connected to a Central Monitoring Station. We started planning for a new station about the time I joined our Dept, in 1958, we moved in to the new facility in 1964. We had a Rate-Of-Rise Heat Detector Network tied into our Siren System. This building is still in use, and the alarm system has been upgraded to include Smoke Detectors and a connection to a Central Monitoring Facility. Our next Station came in 1992, and has Sprinklers, Smoke Detectors, and Manual Pull Stations, all connected to a Central Monitoring Facility. Considering the Cost of the project as a whole, these items weren't that expensive, and are worth every penny. Protecting Apparatus, Documents, Furniture, etc. is fine, but protection for our People is most important.
    Last edited by hwoods; 06-13-2007 at 09:20 AM.
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    Oops, didn't see the 2nd article when I read it yesterday. To me, a siren is totally different than an alarm, that's why I misunderstood. Didn't even occur to me, or the burglar alarm either, Ian. Thanks guys.
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    But this is the first time a firehouse has had a fire and not had an adequate alarm system.


    We have 2 stations in town. 1 has it's alarm system monitored by our local PD, who is also our dispatch center. The other station has their alarm tied into their building siren. Not great, but better than a lot (from reading these forums).
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    But this is the first time a firehouse has had a fire and not had an adequate alarm system.


    We have 2 stations in town. 1 has it's alarm system monitored by our local PD, who is also our dispatch center. The other station has their alarm tied into their building siren. Not great, but better than a lot (from reading these forums).
    Exactly my point.

    From what I can gather about this incident, millions of dollars in emergency response equipment was inside a building with inadequate protection. Now, the town has drastically reduced emergency response capability because of a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach to risk management.

    Wanna bet that they have an alarm system in the Little League equipment storage room?

    This town's taxpayers should be up in arms that the town fathers and the people who run the FD allowed this situation to occur.

    No, I have no sympathy. No, I don't have to understand. No, I will not stop posting about this apathetic attitude.

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    I'm curious, how many codes and/or cities require smoke detectors in the attic? This is a similar to the fire in Anderson, MO where 13 people died in an assisted living home in that the fire started in the attic.

    I have the same opinion as I did then, codes need to be changed to require smoke detectors (or whatever detection system is present) in the attic, as well as the functional spaces of buildings. I'm sure we've all been on fires where a fire has burned for a long period of time in an attic before it was noticed.

    One comes to mind that I was at where a passerby saw fire coming through a home's shake shingles. They went to the door, beat on it, and got the attention of the people inside, who had no clue there was a fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I have the same opinion as I did then, codes need to be changed to require smoke detectors (or whatever detection system is present) in the attic, as well as the functional spaces of buildings. I'm sure we've all been on fires where a fire has burned for a long period of time in an attic before it was noticed.

    One comes to mind that I was at where a passerby saw fire coming through a home's shake shingles. They went to the door, beat on it, and got the attention of the people inside, who had no clue there was a fire.
    Good point Catch22, like you said we all have had fires like this. We had a fire across the street from my house a couple years ago of which the house had a finished attic and we had a fire in the void spaces of the attic. The fire was cooking pretty good and burning for awhile. The only way it was noticed was someone driving by saw flames shooting out of the exhaust fan. This person got everyone out, and the out come would've been alot different if it wasn't noticed.
    Last edited by dday05; 06-13-2007 at 04:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Exactly my point.

    From what I can gather about this incident, millions of dollars in emergency response equipment was inside a building with inadequate protection. Now, the town has drastically reduced emergency response capability because of a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach to risk management.

    Wanna bet that they have an alarm system in the Little League equipment storage room?

    This town's taxpayers should be up in arms that the town fathers and the people who run the FD allowed this situation to occur.

    No, I have no sympathy. No, I don't have to understand. No, I will not stop posting about this apathetic attitude.
    This brings up a good point. I wonder how many departments actually have a smoke detector system in their station. I would be surprised if there are to many to be honest. Sounds like a good poll question and either way it should be something that every dept has in their minds. We have a boat load of equipment worth alot of money like George says and it would make sense to have some kind of detection system. Seems ike there has been alot of stations catch fire this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I'm curious, how many codes and/or cities require smoke detectors in the attic? This is a similar to the fire in Anderson, MO where 13 people died in an assisted living home in that the fire started in the attic.

    I have the same opinion as I did then, codes need to be changed to require smoke detectors (or whatever detection system is present) in the attic, as well as the functional spaces of buildings. I'm sure we've all been on fires where a fire has burned for a long period of time in an attic before it was noticed.

    One comes to mind that I was at where a passerby saw fire coming through a home's shake shingles. They went to the door, beat on it, and got the attention of the people inside, who had no clue there was a fire.
    SCREW THE CODES!

    We are talking about the bulk of a municipality's emergency response equipment in a post 9/11 world. Codes are MINIMUM codes and a FD should be responsible enough to protect their community's assets. Talking about codes is a ridiculous copout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    SCREW THE CODES!

    We are talking about the bulk of a municipality's emergency response equipment in a post 9/11 world. Codes are MINIMUM codes and a FD should be responsible enough to protect their community's assets. Talking about codes is a ridiculous copout.
    Well, they were going to address this right after talking about removing the dynamite from the community church's steeple.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Probably the burglar alarm activated due to the fire.

    Sure didn't have sprinklers George. Out of interest for you http://homesprinklers.fire.org.nz/
    From what I understand. Homeowner's (Fire) Insurance actually costs more if you have a single-family residential sprinkler system due to the water damage potential. Go figure.
    Last edited by FDAIC485; 06-13-2007 at 05:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    SCREW THE CODES!

    We are talking about the bulk of a municipality's emergency response equipment in a post 9/11 world. Codes are MINIMUM codes and a FD should be responsible enough to protect their community's assets. Talking about codes is a ridiculous copout.
    Dude, calm down and get the point of my post before you go off! The point is I know of nothing that recommends anyone to put smoke/fire detection systems in the attic or other nonfunctional spaces in buildings. How many buildings, including your fire station and home, have detectors in those spaces?

    The reason I bring up codes is that I don't know of any that require detection systems in those areas. The result is that these guys lost their station, 13 died in a little town in SW Missouri, god knows how many others have died or buildings have burned undetector for long durations because nothing says to put a detector in an area where fire can burn undetected for long durations.

    Honestly, even if they had a fire detection system (I haven't seen anyone post one way or the other), would it have detected a fire in the attic, where the story you posted says in the first paragraph that the fire started?

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    George, you are absolutely correct. Situations like this should not be tolerated. We are viewed as the experts in all manner of emergencies and specifically concerning fires and fire prevention. At the minimum all fire department facilities should have a comprehensive fire alarm system that is monitored by a central monitoring station 24/7/365. It is ironic that the very systems that "we" push, smoke detectors, fire alarm systems, and sprinkler systems are the ones that "we" so often overlook in our own facilities. While it should be common sense we all know that their are those out there that will have excuses as to why they don't have it, didn't get it, etc. One small solution is to require that any facility that is to house any equipment, apparatus, or personnel that is purchased or hired with federal, state, or local grant money must have at the least a monitored fire alarm system. I know that this will only effect a small portion of the depts in the nation it is a start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Dude, calm down and get the point of my post before you go off! The point is I know of nothing that recommends anyone to put smoke/fire detection systems in the attic or other nonfunctional spaces in buildings. How many buildings, including your fire station and home, have detectors in those spaces?

    The reason I bring up codes is that I don't know of any that require detection systems in those areas. The result is that these guys lost their station, 13 died in a little town in SW Missouri, god knows how many others have died or buildings have burned undetector for long durations because nothing says to put a detector in an area where fire can burn undetected for long durations.

    Honestly, even if they had a fire detection system (I haven't seen anyone post one way or the other), would it have detected a fire in the attic, where the story you posted says in the first paragraph that the fire started?
    Calm down? Are you kidding? Do some searching on these forums. You will find that almost EVERYTIME there is a fire in a fire station, the same discussion is held. Usually, George and/or I both get slammed about "not caring about the FD" or some crap like that. And actually, both of us (and a few others) care entirely. We just don't understand how FD's (you know, the ones that teach people about having smoke detectors, the ones that are "experts" on fire related stuff) don't protect their own stations.

    Why is he "going off" on the mention of codes? For the simple reason....we are fire fighters, we shouldn't need codes to force us into using detection systems. Yeah, it's really that obvious.

    We (George and I) will continue to get blasted over these types of posts. Oh well. Maybe one time, one firehouse will actually listen and put in a system. (I'm not holding my breath)

    How many buildings, including your fire station and home, have detectors in those spaces?
    Both stations and my house. I'm a fire fighter, I know better. Don't you?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDAIC485 View Post
    From what I understand. Homeowner's (Fire) Insurance actually costs more if you have a single-family residential sprinkler system due to the water damage potential. Go figure.
    From what I understand, you are dead wrong. And I probably understand more than you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Calm down? Are you kidding? Do some searching on these forums. You will find that almost EVERYTIME there is a fire in a fire station, the same discussion is held. Usually, George and/or I both get slammed about "not caring about the FD" or some crap like that. And actually, both of us (and a few others) care entirely. We just don't understand how FD's (you know, the ones that teach people about having smoke detectors, the ones that are "experts" on fire related stuff) don't protect their own stations.

    Why is he "going off" on the mention of codes? For the simple reason....we are fire fighters, we shouldn't need codes to force us into using detection systems. Yeah, it's really that obvious.

    We (George and I) will continue to get blasted over these types of posts. Oh well. Maybe one time, one firehouse will actually listen and put in a system. (I'm not holding my breath)
    I understand what you're saying, but geez, there's no need to get all up-in-arms about what I feel is a very good point. My mentioning of codes I explained.

    I do agree with you, and George, as a matter of fact. There are departments everywhere that risk the total loss of every peice of emergency equipment they house. Both of my departments are the same way. I've mentioned the situation at my career department, and my council doesn't see it as "cost effective" to work into my vollie department. What can I say, I've tried.

    But the fact remains, no one here definitively knows whether these guys had a fire detection system in place. Even if they did, it's a rarity (in my experience at least) for a system to have detection points in the attic. I question how many who have posted here that their stations have systems actually have detectors in the attic spaces.

    Both stations and my house. I'm a fire fighter, I know better. Don't you?
    Yes, I know better. I'm working on getting a system in my home (which I haven't owned very long) where there's detectors in all rooms, garage, and attic and they're all wired in together.

    Don't think I'm calling George out specifically. Well, maybe since I was a bit ****y, but my point is how many of us do have attic detectors?

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    There are departments everywhere that risk the total loss of every peice of emergency equipment they house. Both of my departments are the same way. I've mentioned the situation at my career department, and my council doesn't see it as "cost effective" to work into my vollie department. What can I say, I've tried.
    Imagine if the Fire Act Grant made firehouse protection a high priority....instead of fitness equipment.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Imagine if the Fire Act Grant made firehouse protection a high priority....instead of fitness equipment.
    You may be on to something there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post

    Don't think I'm calling George out specifically. Well, maybe since I was a bit ****y, but my point is how many of us do have attic detectors?
    Give it a shot. Bigger and better than you have tried.

    BTW, your question couldn't possibly be more irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Give it a shot. Bigger and better than you have tried.
    OK, let me tell you between the lines of what that said. I was not trying to be an *** and admitted that I may have jumped the gun pointing you out specifically in that statement.

    BTW, your question couldn't possibly be more irrelevant.
    I guess you're going to have to explain this one to me. First of all, by which question you're referring to, whether there are any codes that recommend fire detection systems in the attic or other nonfunctional areas, or if you or your fire station have dectors there.

    Either way, I think both are relevant due to the fact this fire started in the attic. The first is due to the fact that I'm curious if there are any codes that recommend/require them. My state is pushing through requirements for alarm systems, etc., and to my knowledge none of them require detectors in the attic. All this due to a fire that started in the attic and spread unnoticed for a considerable amount of time. By the time it was noticed, the cieling was falling in and it was to late to save the 13 that perished.

    The latter due to the fact that no one knows if there was a system in place or not. The only hint to an answer to that question is a "From what we gathered while on standby at their other station..." statement. As a firefighter, I'm sure you have had numerous fires where the fire burned unnoticed in an attic space, venting through roof vents and other holes, without any smoke entering the structure until well into the fire.

    The assumption that there was no fire detection system in place is just that, an assumption, and nothing more at this point. To criticize them for not having a system is based upon that assumption. To criticize them for not having a system to detect an attic fire while not having a detection system in the attic of your own station or home, is hypocritical. That is the relevance in my mind.
    Last edited by Catch22; 06-13-2007 at 07:14 PM.

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    Catch22, I have found that when you are dealing with Lord George here you need to keep it simple. More than 2 or 3 sentences and forget it. And if you agree with 90% of what he says but think his statements need modifying or an addition he goes instantly on the defensive. I don't know how old he is but he acts a lot like many of the crotchety old men you will meet.

    Do what I do, read what he has to say and then donít address him.

    On another note though., how many fire alarm systems d owe have out there that give off a bunch of false positives? Seems to me we need a national standard that demands these devices be more accurate. We get so many false alarms that in some places the alarms have lost their integrity, you canít trust what they are telling you.

    I think an alarm system would be a great idea, and actually, you can request them with the grant. But if I need turnout gear and an alram system which so you think I will ask for? I also believe you can aks for these in the FP grants as well. I will admit I haven't read the guidance so I don't know for sure.

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