Thread: Huh?

  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    933
    Last edited by ehs7554; 06-13-2007 at 07:24 PM.

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    933

    Default

    http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/N...Y&pageId=3.2.1



    I watched this live on the morning news last week and can't believe what I saw. How long does it take to get some water on this fire? Inside or out I don't care? It had to be at least 15 minutes from the time the helicopter reported it. Why did they back the Quint to the building and stop 40 some odd feet short? Why was only one rig initially sent? My oh my. Its destroyed. Oh yeah, and when did we teach guys to shoot master stream devices in on crews working inside? It happened at this one! By the time the FD arrived they had a significant fire, but it was the way it played out after their arrival that makes me question what was going on.......

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    119

    Default

    I think this is a perfect example of how over emphasis on safety actually prevents the fire department from doing its job.

  4. #4
    makes good girls go bad
    BLSboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    On the beach, Fla/OCNJ
    Posts
    2,859

    Default

    You are KIDDING me right?! They more or less "fiddled while Rome burned" Get in there, make an aggressive stop, and 8 outta 10 units aren't destroyed.
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
    Member, IACOJ.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-DTRT-RFB-KTF
    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    In defense of a very well respected fire department, how many here were there to know what all was going on? Basing opinions off of what, a 3-4 minute video on a news story, is probably not the most prudent thing to do.

    Let me ask some questions of you guys...

    How do you know it took 15 minutes to arrive after the chopper called it in to shoot water? I'm sure a portion of it was response time (the reporter says they can see two pumpers responding 5:30 into the fire), part of it was truck placement, and part search and rescue of the guy inside.

    How do you figure the quint is 40' short? From what I see, the stick is where it can reach the roof and still in a position to protect the exposure next to the building.

    What makes you say they were shooting master streams into the building while interior crews were in place? In some circumstances, it is possible for interior crews to be operating while master streams are in place, like a situation where master streams are trying to stop a fire on one side of an apartment complex while interior crews are on the other (unburned) side trying to prevent extension.

    OP is a very competent department, until you've got more than a video snip from a local TV station, I think I'd give them a little benefit of the doubt.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    dday05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,331

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554 View Post
    http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/N...Y&pageId=3.2.1



    I watched this live on the morning news last week and can't believe what I saw. How long does it take to get some water on this fire? Inside or out I don't care? It had to be at least 15 minutes from the time the helicopter reported it. Why did they back the Quint to the building and stop 40 some odd feet short? Why was only one rig initially sent? My oh my. Its destroyed. Oh yeah, and when did we teach guys to shoot master stream devices in on crews working inside? It happened at this one! By the time the FD arrived they had a significant fire, but it was the way it played out after their arrival that makes me question what was going on.......
    From what I see the news chopper was pretty much right over this when it started out. The news guy said 5 1/2 minutes went by into the fire and the dept wasn't there yet I think. The first thing is the fd needs to be notified first. As for 1 rig being sent I thought they responded 2 by the way the news guy was talking. And they probablly were told it was a shrub fire.

    As far as not getting water on the fire, the crews went in and rescued a victim. That by far is most important, none of the tennants lost their lives and that fire looked to be a rather quick moving one. With the short staffed engine crews these days and or lack of manpower in general I would say they did ok for what they had to deal with.Just my own opinion.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    In defense of a very well respected fire department, how many here were there to know what all was going on? Basing opinions off of what, a 3-4 minute video on a news story, is probably not the most prudent thing to do.

    Let me ask some questions of you guys...

    How do you know it took 15 minutes to arrive after the chopper called it in to shoot water? I'm sure a portion of it was response time (the reporter says they can see two pumpers responding 5:30 into the fire), part of it was truck placement, and part search and rescue of the guy inside.

    How do you figure the quint is 40' short? From what I see, the stick is where it can reach the roof and still in a position to protect the exposure next to the building.

    What makes you say they were shooting master streams into the building while interior crews were in place? In some circumstances, it is possible for interior crews to be operating while master streams are in place, like a situation where master streams are trying to stop a fire on one side of an apartment complex while interior crews are on the other (unburned) side trying to prevent extension.

    OP is a very competent department, until you've got more than a video snip from a local TV station, I think I'd give them a little benefit of the doubt.
    I know what was going on because I watched the whole thing unfold live right in front of the news camera.
    Rescue a victim.....They saw that guy comming down the hallway and grabbed him up. Did you not see the FF just drop him outside and then he ran off?
    I saw One stream of water comming out the same area the master stream was going in. Maybe that didn't make the shorter clip, but it did happen. You don't operate master streams while guys are inside. Not on a building that size for sure!
    It may have come in as a shrub fire and 1 rig was dispatched initially until further info was given. At least at my current and old job, if there is a report of any fire inpending on a structure, we turn out a full alarm. This is a perfect example of why....It took very little time for the fire to grow to a much larger problem.

    Well respected dept for what??? A great combat challenge team? That hardly makes them a great dept.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post

    OP is a very competent department, until you've got more than a video snip from a local TV station, I think I'd give them a little benefit of the doubt.
    You are kidding right? They have some great guys who are held back from doing there job by incompetent leadership!

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    OK, I'll give you that you have more information basing your statements on than just that little snipette. I have a feeling you're one of only a handful that jumped onboard. Nothing personal, but you wouldn't want your tactics questioned by someone on here if they only had a couple of minutes of an incident video, would you?

    From where I'm from, OP is respected. We sent guys up to help them out in the ice storm a few years back, worked side-by-side with them, and I know some guys on there. In that regard, they are well respected in my part of the world. I have no idea what their leadership is like now, to be totally honest.

    I do know of several departments that will send a single engine response to a brush fire or what have you. I also know of some that will send a two company, or even a full structure fire response if a structure is threatened. However, before you jump on OPFD, what info did they have? Perhaps the dispatcher screwed the pooch, or maybe even the dispatcher didn't have the info needed.

    I will agree with you, placing a master stream in the same area as interior crews isn't the smartest thing to do, but I didn't see that in the video, so I questioned it and you answered.

    Oh, and maybe I base my opinions of OPFD too much on the great guys.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,890

    Default

    That aerial stream is awesome!! Looks like the roofers did a good job, the water runs off just as the architect intended. The video stopped short of showing what the aerial stream was going to be used for, but I didn't see immediate reason to go high in the sky. Pushing the fire back down only forces it to move horizontally toward adjacent exposures.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    That aerial stream is awesome!! Looks like the roofers did a good job, the water runs off just as the architect intended. The video stopped short of showing what the aerial stream was going to be used for, but I didn't see immediate reason to go high in the sky. Pushing the fire back down only forces it to move horizontally toward adjacent exposures.
    EXACTLY! I agree....good architechture! At one point the master stream was shooting over the house not even hitting the fire. My buddy knew exactly what they were doing.......Cool the air that is feeding the fire....cool air = cool fire....... right?...HA!

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    As the first line goes, so goes the fire.

    FTM-PTB

    PS-Two trucks? I assumed the guy was refering to two companies. Why send so few companies to a reported fire?
    Last edited by FFFRED; 06-14-2007 at 08:52 AM.

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Haweater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    THE Rock, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    141

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I do know of several departments that will send a single engine response to a brush fire or what have you. I also know of some that will send a two company, or even a full structure fire response if a structure is threatened. However, before you jump on OPFD, what info did they have? Perhaps the dispatcher screwed the pooch, or maybe even the dispatcher didn't have the info needed.
    Why risk it? I saw a vid on google not too long ago where a small brush fire ended up with 4 or 5 houses in a subdivision burning to beat hell. We'll respond with a minimum of two trucks to any call and send what isn't needed back to the barn AFTER we get there and see for ourselves. (Pumper and tanker if no hydrants, followed by additional pumper and mini-pumper)
    Recent grass fire we were paged out to ended up being two outbuildings and fire burning right up to the tires of a couple of vehicles. LOT easier to send trucks home then call for them after the fact.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Now after doing a little research I recall this dept had another fire video on the formus and I was among a few who thought some of the tactics were a bit less than standard. I believe I mistook these guys for jerrygarcia's Dept. initally. 1 3/4 fog line into the rear of a taxpayer, towerladders set up blocks away with ineffective fog streams.

    Perhaps this is par for the course.

    FTM-PTB

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Chiefy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    201

    Default

    I'll stay out of the tactics as I was not there and a one view video does not tell the whole story. I do find it amazing how "opinions" differ about what is NFPA standards in fire attack. Some tactic are not up for "interpretation".
    I do however find this to be an excellent video supporting the need for PROPER sprinkler design. This fire should not have been a run-a-way fire.

    Good luck with the debate and please remember, no two fires are exactly the same. Use your differences to learn from, not belittle.
    Think first and be safe. Your family wants to hold you, not a folded flag.

    Proud member of the Patriot Guard Riders

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    I'll stay out of the tactics as I was not there and a one view video does not tell the whole story. I do find it amazing how "opinions" differ about what is NFPA standards in fire attack. Some tactic are not up for "interpretation".
    I do however find this to be an excellent video supporting the need for PROPER sprinkler design. This fire should not have been a run-a-way fire.

    Good luck with the debate and please remember, no two fires are exactly the same. Use your differences to learn from, not belittle.
    WHAT? NFPA standards on fire attack?? You are kidding?

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Dickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,112

    Default

    I was not there, I do not know anyone that was there, I have not seen any other video than the one posted (that was edited too), and have not seeen any posts of someone who was there.

    I cannot possibly make a comment or question tactics based on that little information.........and neither can you.
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    933

    Default

    So watching it unfold on live TV doesn't count? It was pretty much like having a Chiefs eye view. This is not the first time something like this has happened there.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,890

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554 View Post
    WHAT? NFPA standards on fire attack?? You are kidding?
    You nailed that! WTF?? NFPA standards on Tactics? That I've have got to see. Lets see:

    NFPA 9898 (2007 Edition) Standard for Fire Emergency Tactics:
    1. Recieve alarm
    1.1 Perform Risk/Benefit Analysis
    1.1.1 If Benefit outweighs rewards wait 10 minutes until the balance shifts, go to 1.1.2
    1.1.2 Too risky stay in station, draw shades, turn up the TV.

    NFPA 9898 Committee:
    Bill Dit, National Builders Alliance
    Fah Kit, Truss Builders Alliance
    Cell Lit, Realtors Association
    LAFireducator, The Modern Fire Service
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 06-15-2007 at 03:03 PM.

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefy View Post
    I'll stay out of the tactics as I was not there and a one view video does not tell the whole story. I do find it amazing how "opinions" differ about what is NFPA standards in fire attack. Some tactic are not up for "interpretation".
    I do however find this to be an excellent video supporting the need for PROPER sprinkler design. This fire should not have been a run-a-way fire.

    Good luck with the debate and please remember, no two fires are exactly the same. Use your differences to learn from, not belittle.
    I hope to God that you are not a white hat. I am dumbfounded by your statement. NFPA and tactics? huh?

    Maybe they do remove your brain when you become a chief officer....and make you forget about what life was like on the line....

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Dickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554 View Post
    So watching it unfold on live TV doesn't count? It was pretty much like having a Chiefs eye view. This is not the first time something like this has happened there.
    No it doesn't. Were you on the ground with them and experienced the same things they did? Maybe they had water or equipment problems? Did you hear any radio traffic or at least the initial dispatch? Were you there to witness all the sights and sounds as they happened? Did you talk to anyone who was there and hear their comments?

    Watching it live on tv is a good way of seeing things as they happen but you are only SEEING it, not witnessing it. That is like telling a cop to "just shoot him in the leg" or "man, it took forever for you to get here!"
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber
    somchfn03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Salina, KS
    Posts
    14

    Default

    How about everyone stop criticizing OPFD, the way the responded and put out this fire, watching a 2 min video does not give you that right!! How about this, have someone around the area find a OP guy on this forum or one that lives close to them, and get there take on this fire. Try getting info from both sides and then make your opinion.

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Dickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by somchfn03 View Post
    Try getting info from both sides and then make your opinion.
    OMG!!! What an idea!

    Can I get a woooo woooo.....
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by somchfn03 View Post
    How about everyone stop criticizing OPFD, the way the responded and put out this fire, watching a 2 min video does not give you that right!! How about this, have someone around the area find a OP guy on this forum or one that lives close to them, and get there take on this fire. Try getting info from both sides and then make your opinion.
    I know a couple of guys from OPFD and I know someone from CFD2 who, by the way, had to come help them out. I think watching the live video does give me some right to "criticize". Working near these guys and seeing them time and time again on news and on scenes gives me a pretty good idea of how they operate. I am thankful I do not live in their response area.

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    chattanooga TN U.S.
    Posts
    83

    Default

    I wish we had more concrete info on there responce. I can only imagine why it took so long to start knock down. I'm trying to be objective but I got to tell ya its hard all I see is what we call "political water" coming out of that ladder. I wonder if any one could get a feed of the dispatch info?
    "Lead Follow Or Get Out Of The Way"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Huh?
    By Diane E in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 03-13-2006, 12:07 AM
  2. UHMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm ok ....HUH ?>
    By Weruj1 in forum The Off Duty Forums
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-29-2005, 08:48 PM
  3. huh?
    By blueeighty88 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-27-2004, 11:00 PM
  4. Huh????? This is odd.
    By stm4710 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-04-2004, 08:50 PM
  5. Huh?!?
    By Diane E in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-07-2002, 08:43 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register