1. #1
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    Default Movement for smoothbores

    OK, heres my plan. Present something to the powers that be to make a change to smoothbores, if nothing else, for our highrise packs. Our district is a mx of mostly 1 story SFDs, a few duplexes, highrise condos, and commercial buildings.
    They argue that the lower PSI will lead to kinks.
    They argue that steam conversion puts the fires out.

    They are stubborn. Where can I find data to back my claim that smoothbores are safer, and that GPM puts fires out, NOT steam conversion.

    If you are pro fog, great. I don't care that much. Fog has a place, as does smoothbores. I would like to see the Elkhart brass combo nozzles being bought. They give you the best of both worlds.

    Help is appreciated in advance!
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    If you want to present something to management on this then you need to have a good base knowledge of GPM versus Fire Load .... you need to flow-test your own lines under routinely operating scenarios .... you may not be getting 150gpm (or whatever) as believed.
    • Understand that fog nozzles serve several purposes other than direct suppression
    • In high-rise situations I agree that smooth-bores can outperform fog patterns in some situations

    Try http://www.fire-flows.com for information on firefighting flow-rates versus fire loads etc.

    Quite simply, your NFA flow-formula is the most reliable method you have (my opinion) for assessing practical firefighting needs.

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    Paul, that would be me reasoning for wanting the Elkhart Brass nozzles. I got to see them, and play with them when I was an explorer. They look just like a regular fog nozzle, but the fog part screws off, leaving you with a smoothbore underneath. The idea being, take the tip off, pocket it, knock the fire down with smoothbore, then mop up/ hydrolically vent with fog.

    There are many fires that a smoothbore wouldnt be as ideal for, brush fires, rubbish fires, and since that is a good deal of our fires, we would need to keep the fog tips.

    As for the high rise kits, would two 1 3/4 lines, or one 2.5 line work better?
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    BLS: Breakaways are the way to go, have 150 gpm fogs with 1" solid bores on the breakaways. This way if you get an officer who is a moron and loves fogs you can kinda drop it off at the door. As for 2 lines verses one, ya gotta consider manpower-flow needed, etc. Our Hi-rise packs have a gated 2-1/2" so its up to whoever is calling the shots whether we run one large line or 2 smaller.
    Last edited by wag11c; 06-22-2007 at 03:19 PM.

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    We currently have one section of 2.5, a gated wye, then 2 150 ft sections of 1/3/4 with fog nozzles. Our manpower during that weekdays is 4-5 initial alarm, then with a working fire page, maybe another 4 or 5 more. With mutual aid, it would increase significatly, but for a quick knockdown, I am inclined to go with one 2.5 in line.
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    Even with a 2 1/2 you definately need to think about a backup line. When windows blow out in a highrise you can end up with a blow torch in your face from the wind at the upper floors. Open or broken balcony doors, a huge opening to fan a firestorm. A few years back I had the second line into a 15th floor fire. The apartment went in 4-5ft then slpit left and right with fire in both directions in all rooms. We went opposite the first line and took care of our side. If there was only one line and they started to make a push, there would have been a few rooms of fire behind them. There was zero visibility so the guys on the first line didn't know about the fire behind them. How about a broken length?

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    Even with a 2 1/2 you definately need to think about a backup line.
    Well said Len .... High-rise packs? 2" hose would be my choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wag11c View Post
    BLS: Breakaways are the way to go, have 150 gpm fogs with 1" solid bores on the breakaways. This way if you get an officer who is a moron and loves fogs you can kinda drop it off at the door. As for 2 lines verses one, ya gotta consider manpower-flow needed, etc. Our Hi-rise packs have a gated 2-1/2" so its up to whoever is calling the shots whether we run one large line or 2 smaller.


    Can you give more info. about these breakaway nozzels please. Website ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RESQBOSS244 View Post
    Can you give more info. about these breakaway nozzels please. Website ?
    Elkhart Brass makes them. I will try to find more info for ya. Stay tuned.......
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    Akron makes a Sabor Jet Nozzle, Smooth bore up the middle and a fog around the outside. The bail controls the smoothebore and you turn the tip like adjusting the fog pattern to control the fog pattern.(turn on off). We got them for CAFS use since you should be using smooth bores for cafs... Im not saying I love them because they take some getting use to but they do work....It does give you the advantage of both in one....
    Be SAFE!!! Go home when your shift is done and enjoy life.
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    The Elkhart Nozzles are the 4000 series Chief Nozzles. They are available in 100, 75 and 50 psi versions. The slug tip pistol grip shut off is the B275-GAT. How do I know? Both my volly and career FD use them.

    My volly FD uses a 200 gpm at 75 psi combo tip backed with a 1 1/4 inch slug on 2 inch hose.

    My career FD uses a 200 gpm at 75 psi combo tip with a 15/16 slug tip on 1 3/4 inch hose.

    This is a great set up giving you the best of both worlds.

    FyredUp

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    Most commonly they are the Elkhart Chief combo nozzle 4000 series and the B-275GAT pistol grip shut off with the built in slug tip.

    From fyredup

    there ya go.
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    Now I look silly!

    I just found your post from about a year ago, when I had asked the same question
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    One thing to think about when considering your high-rise pack setups is what type of pressure you are going to get at the connection. The editions of NFPA 14 (the standard for standpipes) prior to 1994 required only 65 psi to be available at the most remote discharge, usually the one on the roof. Newer editions (after 1994) require 100 psi at the discharge of the most remote standpipe. Also, NFPA 14 recommends using 2-1/2" hose lines with smoothbore nozzles, and all requirements for fire flows use those two types of equipment as the assumed equipment to be used with the system.

    This is extremely important because using a 150' standpipe pack, you have to factor in the friction loss of your hose line. For 2-1/2" hose lines, it is approximately 5 psi per length of hose (depending on brand). Therefore, you will still have 50 psi of nozzle pressure in older standpipe systems. However, should you chose to use 1-3/4" hoselines on your standpipes, you will be getting a higher level of friction loss. This means you will have less than 50 psi at the nozzle, which with both automatic & smoothbore nozzles equals to a reduced fire flow. Also, it is important to remember that fog nozzles are much more prone to clogging due to sedimentation and debris that can be found in standpipe systems. Smoothbore nozzles will allow something as large as a small rodent to pass through the nozzle without clogging the hoseline.

    A lot of people are scared to use the 2-1/2" lines, but the key is to train with it. Training and proper techniques makes it a very manageable tool, and for high-rise fires should be the first line in service, in my opinion.

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    Nice one BLSBoy, I will admit to laughing outloud.

    FyredUp

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    FTLAUD;

    That is one of the most concise and clear explanations of why to use 2 1/2" and smooth bore on high-rise packs I have ever read.
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    BLSBoy, I would look up the NIOSH Fatality Reports for several of the high-rise fires. I recall two or three that were directly related to low flow pressures on the standpipe. It is difficult to argue with a NIOSH report.

    If nobody beats me to it I will look them up tomorrow and post here.
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    Thanks for the compliment KenNFD1219

    Here's one USFA report, on the Meridian Plaza fire in Philly where low pressures being used with fog nozzles and 1-3/4" hoselines lead to an 18+ hour fire that consumed 8 floors of a high rise. One of the first fires that comees to mind in terms of low pressures coming off of a standpipe system.

    http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-049.pdf

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    Checking in right quick, then off the bed.

    Ft. Laud....Wow. You WILL be hearing from me in the near future. I am going to be picking you brain alot. MUCH thanks for all the info and the explainations.

    Fyredup - do you have any literature on the nozzles, and or pricing on them?

    and PS Fyred......its known as "LOL", or Laughing Out Loud

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTLAUD View Post
    A lot of people are scared to use the 2-1/2" lines, but the key is to train with it. Training and proper techniques makes it a very manageable tool, and for high-rise fires should be the first line in service, in my opinion.
    Just to make note that 2 1/2" lines may/will be manpower reliant as opposed to 2" hose-lines. Staffing the 2 1/2" line requires at least one additional firefighter over the 2" and at stand-pipe pressures and flows, friction losses in the 2" (compared to the 1 3/4") are not so critical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Checking in right quick, then off the bed.

    Ft. Laud....Wow. You WILL be hearing from me in the near future. I am going to be picking you brain alot. MUCH thanks for all the info and the explainations.

    Fyredup - do you have any literature on the nozzles, and or pricing on them?

    and PS Fyred......its known as "LOL", or Laughing Out Loud

    Go to www.elkhart.com they have descriptions of all of their nozzles there.

    As for pricing, sorry I can't help you there. It has been a few years since we bought and I don't sell Elkhart nozzles, as much as I wish I did. I think the Chief is a good rugged nozzle that isn't to heavy or bulky.

    If I was going to use chat room jargon I would have used LMAO!!

    FyredUp

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    Paul, would you happen to know or know where I could find the friction loss for 1 3/4 vs 2 in vs 2.5 in hose?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Paul, would you happen to know or know where I could find the friction loss for 1 3/4 vs 2 in vs 2.5 in hose?
    http://www.keyfire.com/FlowChart.pdf

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=52848

    Friction Loss Formula: FL=C(Q*Q)L
    FL = Friction Loss in PSI
    C = Friction loss coefficient (Standard & manufacturers values in chart below)
    Q = Flow rate in hundreds of gpm
    L = Hose length in hudreds of feet

    For double jacketed, rubber lined fire hose C is:
    1.75" C=15.5
    2" C=8
    2.5" C=2
    Last edited by PaulGRIMWOOD; 06-23-2007 at 01:53 PM.

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    BLSboy...

    Be aware that the only true way to ever know what a hose is flowing at any given pressure is to use pressure gauges and flow meters. The formulas are a great place to start but may not be accurate for any specific hose.

    tomorrow when I am home i can give you EP's for 2 inch hose for flowsof 160 200 and 300 gpm if that would help you. Let me know.

    FyredUp

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    Whatever info you guys have, would be awesome. I am trying to get movement from the Black Hats, before I go to the White Hats. The more info I have, the better it will be!

    THANKS!
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