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    Default You think Rudy is THE man ?

    Then I have two words for you. BERNARD KERIK.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    The www.rudysfirefighters.com is already toast.

    Maybe it's just me, but I see Rudy's campaign flagging already.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    The IAFF had better take these next steps carefully, because Rudy is a lot more popular than the upper echelon of our union would like. Especially considering that the most recent issue of the International is basically devoted to bashing Rudy.
    I don’t know whether Rudy has what it takes to get elected, or if he’ll even receive the GOP nomination. What I do know though, is that he was just here, and while here he met with not just my local, but our IAFF district leadership, as well as representatives from our state association. This meeting was very positive. He also, is in fact very well liked by many of the rank and file IAFF.
    In my opinion, there could be a high potential for a significant fracture among the ranks, particularly if Hillary were to receive our endorsement.

    Rudy is in fact very pro-firefighter, and very compassionate with firefighters, contrary to what some would like us to believe.
    Last edited by jasper45; 06-24-2007 at 02:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    In my opinion, there could be a high potential for a significant fracture among the ranks, particularly if Hillary were to receive our endorsement.
    I agree completely. In spite of her support of firefighters the rank and file in my department has a visceral hatred of the woman.

    Don't ask me why. Most of their issues are BS arguments from the Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly's of the world.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Question for the FDNY guys.

    Wasn't Rudy especially popular with you guys until he made the unpopular decision of limiting the amount of firefighters sifting through debris at the WTC site??

    I understand not a popular decision with you guys, but is that the extent if the anti-Rudy campaign - you were unhappy with one decision??
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    I think Rudy's choices for police and fire commissioner speaks volumes to his character.... Or lack of it.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Question for the FDNY guys.

    Wasn't Rudy especially popular with you guys until he made the unpopular decision of limiting the amount of firefighters sifting through debris at the WTC site??

    I understand not a popular decision with you guys, but is that the extent if the anti-Rudy campaign - you were unhappy with one decision??
    I had heard from one of FDNY guys that visited they had been without a contract for quite some time before 9/11.

    Rudy's support of firefighters didn't equate to compensation in the most expensive locale in the US.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    My opinion on Rudy has nothing to do with his history for or against the brotherhood. When he was on a stop down here a couple months ago, he said he fully supported the governments involvement in the Terri Schivo case (remember that mess?).

    Thats all I needed to hear. I will never vote for the man, regardless of his position on fire service matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Question for the FDNY guys.

    Wasn't Rudy especially popular with you guys until he made the unpopular decision of limiting the amount of firefighters sifting through debris at the WTC site??

    I understand not a popular decision with you guys, but is that the extent if the anti-Rudy campaign - you were unhappy with one decision??

    I wasnt on until after 9/11. So I cant really comment on if he was really popular with guys before 9/11, although I know guys in my house with time on the job didnt like him before 9/11.

    As for the anti-Rudy campaign, it is much more involved than just the one decision.
    • Issues with the radios is a big concern among members, atleast guys I have spoken to about the upcoming election. The radios that members still operated with on 9/11 were the same ones that showed major problems after the 1st attack in 93. There were, and still are, big concerns about how the city went about purchasing the new Motorola radios, which then went anywhere between 12 and 31 million dollars overbudget, depending on who you ask. The radios were unfit, and months before 9/11, after having already given them all to companies, were taken back after numerous operational issues. The old radios, the ones that had many problems in 93, and numerous times after that, were then reissued, and were the ones operated on on 9/11.
      Due to a lack of interoperability with these radios, chiefs never heard the NYPD helicopter pilot give radio warnings about imminent collapse. The City council attempted to have hearings about the subject, and inproper buying of the radios by the city, with no contract, before 9/11. Obviously, the events of 9/11 steered the city away from the hearings, and on to other more pressing issues. Alan Hevesi, who was city Comptroller at the time, also attempted a hearing. He was met with great resistance from most of the parties involved.The National Institute of Standards and Technology, in their 2005 report findings, stated that atleast half of the firefighters in the North Tower never heard the order to evacuate.
    • Giuliani's decision to have the OEM built in 7 WTC, even after members of the FD, PD,and his own political "think tank" told him the decision would be unwise, for the very obvious reason that it was too close to a very well known and already hit terrorist target. What interoperability could have occured that day, didnt, because OEM was evacuated and became utterly useless after the first plane hit. According to Giuliani staffers, his biggest reason for wanting it placed at 7 World Trade, was that it could be within walking distance from City Hall. Since 9/11, at the 9/11 Commission hearings, and talks to other cities about how to manage terrorist attacks, he spoke very highly of his OEM creation. The very OEM that basically served no purpose on 9/11. The 2005 NIST report tore apart the OEM, writing it off as "basically a support organization fore expediting emergency response operations."
    • On that same token, Giuliani has now become some sort of terrorist expert, and has actually made that a main focus of his campaign. What exactly did Giuliani do to prepare NYC for another terrorist attack after he became mayor? Even before winning the election, he and his campaign staff never focused on the 93 attacks, or what he would do to prevent another attack. Giuliani's focus was always directed at crime, and quality of life. Even during OEM "disaster" drills, the topic of Al Queda or another 1993 terrorist attack was never addressed. This question was raised by Sen. Bob Kerrey during the 9/11 commission hearings. Giuliani's response was that the PD and FD " could handle almost any emergency ad hoc, but what they were really behind on was biological and chemical attacks. I thought we needed an umbrella agency to train and push them".

    Obviously, this could go on. I am not stating whether I am anti Rudy, pro Rudy, or anything else. These are just some concerns raised by FFs, authors, Senators, etc over the past few years.

    If anyone wants to read more about some of these things, I suggest reading "Grand Illusion, The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11" by Wayne Barrett and Dan Collins, and also "Radio Silence FDNY", by FDNY Battalion Chief John Joyce and Bill Bowen.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    If Fred Thompson doesnt run...Rudy WILL be the next prez. The dems have NO chance in 08..Why? Hillary WILL be thier nominee..BIG mistake. Nationally, She is unelectable.

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    I don't know if Rudy now proclaims to be a terrorist expert or not, but I lend my ears to the dozens of other candidates to know what their plans to fight terrorism are, and all I hear are crickets chirping.

    As wary as I am about how awful Rudy might turn out if he is elected to office, I'm much more afraid of what will happen if we get someone who chooses to negotiate with terrorists, fight Global Warming 'epidemics' while guys in the back of the room are getting their throats slit by Jihadists, or in any form or fashion attempt to further steer our focus away from catching those behind the 9/11 attacks.

    Someone just slap me and tell me they got away with it. I still have a hard time accepting it.
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    If Fred Thompson doesnt run...Rudy WILL be the next prez. The dems have NO chance in 08..Why? Hillary WILL be thier nominee..BIG mistake. Nationally, She is unelectable.
    I think you're in for a rude awakening. If the Republicans ran a Jesus Christ/Superman ticket, they would still lose in '08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    I think you're in for a rude awakening. If the Republicans ran a Jesus Christ/Superman ticket, they would still lose in '08.
    IF..Hillary is the nominee...And the fix is in, she will be. Then the dems are doomed. Thompson OR Rudy has MAJOR "middle of the road" support advantage. Obama IMHO has a better chance than hillary. BESIDES she is a sitting senator..NOT GOOD. Obama although he is a senator is just more desirable to most of America then another Clinton. The primaries are a long way off but its between Rudy or Fred..One of which will win the general. The dems are doing themselves NO favors in congress either. Thier approval is lower than the repubs when they lost in 06 and its currently lower than Bush's. James Carvell seems to be the only dem that is MAJORLY concerned right now...He is smarter than he sounds.
    Last edited by fireusafpro; 06-24-2007 at 08:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    I think you're in for a rude awakening. If the Republicans ran a Jesus Christ/Superman ticket, they would still lose in '08.
    Which shows that the electorate votes more with their emotions at the time than their brains. If people always voted for the other guy, Bill Clinton would not have become President until January 20, 1997 at the earliest. George H.W. Bush is/was just that much better of a statesman and leader, Clinton was just an AMAZING candidate. Ford should have beat Carter and thus, Reagan would not have likely become President. But at the time folks were ****ed at Nixon, took it out on Ford. If the Dems win, it won't be because they have a better candidate, it will just be because folks are ****ed at Cheney.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireusafpro View Post
    IF..Hillary is the nominee...And the fix is in, she will be. Then the dems are doomed. Thompson OR Rudy has MAJOR "middle of the road" support advantage. Obama IMHO has a better chance than hillary. BESIDES she is a sitting senator..NOT GOOD. Obama although he is a senator is just more desirable to most of America then another Clinton. The primaries are a long way off but its between Rudy or Fred..One of which will win the general. The dems are doing themselves NO favors in congress either. Thier approval is lower than the repubs when they lost in 06 and its currently lower than Bush's. James Carvell seems to be the only dem that is MAJORLY concerned right now...He is smarter than he sounds.
    At this point 16 years ago, Bill Clinton was still way on the side lines. We have no idea who will be either sides candidate, both could be names that have barely been floated yet. There are a lot of Dem governors, and a lot of Replicans that have been mum in public but been looking for support in endorsements and money on the side. For one, Jeb won't run in '08, but if there is not a GOP WH, you will see him at the top of the ticket in 2012.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    I'll take Fred Thompson, as long as he doesn't totally screw up with his VP pick.
    As for the Dems winning in 08?
    Dare to dream.
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    If the Dems win, it won't be because they have a better candidate, it will just be because folks are ****ed at Cheney.
    I don't think so. GWB's lousy little war and occupation will be the undoing of the Republicans, and everytime someone sees his smirky smartass face, they'll be reminded of who started it. While Cheney was one of the engineers of the debacle, Bush will carry the blame...because he was the biggest cheerleader and fearmonger of them all.

    Who is this "Cheney" you speak of? I vaguely remember some guy shooting an old man in the face, but haven't seen much of him, lately.

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    As for the Dems winning in 08?
    Dare to dream.
    Same thing the righties said when the Democrats cleaned house in congress, recently. Keep scoffing. Denial is a hell of a strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Same thing the righties said when the Democrats cleaned house in congress, recently. Keep scoffing. Denial is a hell of a strategy.
    The democrats did not win congress. The repubs. LOST it. There were corrupt members "in jail now" that was the REAL downfall. The War is NOT the reason the dems are in control of congress. As i stated a fact earlier, Congres NOW has a lower approval rating of the pre election 06 congress and Bush. Hillary WILL be the nominee and she will NOT win. Im very conservative and Rudy may not be my first pick but he or Thompson will win...If Fred runs(which i think he will). The Republicans caused thier own defeat in 06 NOT thier policies. Bush is not up for re election. The folks that say he will be the reason dems will win in 08 are just not that intellegent. I heard the same thing in 1996..Clinton=bad so Dole will win...NOT. The dems are making the same mistake now the repubs made in 1996. Keep in mind the Senate is only a 1 seat majority for the dems and the house is closer now that it was in 06...The repub is almost certain to take back the senate...Immigration alone will kill the dems. Republicans have thier own few members that arent voting right but Almost ALL the Dems are in favor of amnesty...This will be thier defeat.
    Last edited by fireusafpro; 06-24-2007 at 10:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireusafpro View Post
    The War is NOT the reason the dems are in control of congress.
    I suppose reasonable minds could disagree, but I think you're dead wrong. I actually think that the reason Congress currently has a low approval rating is because the country is way, way out in front of the political class on the war. Most people know it's a disaster and want us out. Right now. That's why Democrats got elected, and that's why their approval rating is low at the moment, because they're not getting us out of this mess fast enough for most of the public.

    When the next election rolls around, and the GOP is forced to tie themselves to Iraq, they'll lose even more seats than they did in '06. If you look at the polling on things like taxes, health care, and on and on, the problem the Republicans have is that majorities in this country disagree with them on the issues. They've been able (through some brilliant campaigning) to hide that disconnect for decades. They can't now.

    The war is the main reason that the Democrats have control. Other issues will be the reason they keep it. Any candidate they throw out there for president in '08 starts with a 10-15 point advantage. That's not something the GOP's going to be able to overcome.
    Last edited by OneL1L; 06-24-2007 at 11:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireusafpro View Post
    The democrats did not win congress. The repubs. LOST it. There were corrupt members "in jail now" that was the REAL downfall. The War is NOT the reason the dems are in control of congress.
    I admire your committment to a group of people (GOP) who are currently rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
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    If you believe the race is only between Rudy and Fred or Hillary and Obama you haven't been paying attention.

    With Bloomberg declaring his independence from the GOP will make a whole different race. If he is in fact willing to put a $1B of his own money into the race it automatically makes him a viable third party candidate. Something usually regarded as being reserved for the fringe.

    Here
    is an interesting Op Ed written by a former Reagan staffer.

    I think people are unhappy with both parties and would embrace a candidate(s) who are not tied to what are increasingly dysfunctional groups. Bloomberg has the opportunity to raise debate and force candidates to take positions at a time when they are unwilling to be specific in their policy goals. His threat to the status quo will be readily determined by the amount of vitriol that will be coming from both major parties as the campaigns develop.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    At the same time Giuliani cut in firefighters allowed to search the pile, he also made a conscious decision to put into place the “scoop-and-dump” operation to expedite the clean-up of Ground Zero in lieu of the more time consuming, but respectful, process of carefully removing debris in hope of uncovering more remains. Giuliani’s actions meant that my BROTHERS and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like so much garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill. Our local presidents at the time attempted to meet with the Mayor to stop this disrespectful treatment of those who perished, but he refused to see them face-to-face. The scoop-and-dump continued. And when hundreds of family members of the fallen joined the hundreds of FDNY members protest Giuliani’s decision, he ordered senior officers of the NYPD to arrest 15 of our FDNY BROTHERS. Giuliani modified his policy after the protest because public opinion was so strongly with our members. Ultimately, he was forced to put us back on the pile. Our protests were later proven justified as more bodies were recovered and those families given a chance for some closure and a decent burial. Giuliani argued that he took our members off the pile for their own safety, but his argument was empty and without substance. Firefighters had been on that pile since minutes after the twin towers fell – why all of a sudden, after nearly two months working on the most dangerous incident site in our country’s history, was Giuliani concerned about firefighter safety? In my view, he wasn’t really concerned. The fact is that the Mayor’s switch to a scoop-and-dump coincided with the final removal of tens of millions of dollars of gold, silver and other assets of the Bank of Nova Scotia that were buried beneath what was once the towers. Once that money was out, Giuliani sided with the developers that opposed a lengthy recovery effort, and ordered the scoop-and-dump operation so they could proceed with redevelopment. Giuliani crucified firefighters after our protest and publicly stated that our members were essentially acting like babies, that they didn’t have the market cornered on grief. His insensitive statements demonstrated his inability to grasp what members of the FDNY were experiencing.

    What Giuliani showed is a disgraceful lack of respect for the fallen and those BROTHERS still searching for them. He exposed our members and leaders to arrest. He valued the money and gold and wanted the site cleared before he left office at the end of 2001 more than he valued the lives and memories of those lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E40FDNYL35 View Post
    Giuliani argued that he took our members off the pile for their own safety, but his argument was empty and without substance. Firefighters had been on that pile since minutes after the twin towers fell – why all of a sudden, after nearly two months working on the most dangerous incident site in our country’s history, was Giuliani concerned about firefighter safety?
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    Rudy has got my vote over any other of the candidates that are running. I may not agree in everything he has done but he is much better than the rest imo. My life does not just evolve around just the fire service and all my decisions about elections. I come from a family of union people and a father who was big into unions but always said to vote opposite of who the union picks because usually they are corrupt in some way. Now go and flame away on me ................

    Another thing I would like to mention to Noz is that his great Dem congress has a lower approval rating than his hated president. Hmm I thought they were the saviors? I guess not.
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