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  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Is blame being brought here?

    I read this article and I'm getting the idea that Assistant Chief Garvin is getting thrown to the wolves. Is it just me?

    http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/...ines_conflict/

    I'm thinking, IMHO that his actions were just right regarding checking the interior a few times personally. I really don't want to see him have the blame put on his shoulders that I feel this article is doing. I couldn't imagine the grief he's feeling and my prayers are with him and all the brothers of local 61.

    God Bless the Charleston 9!!!!!
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RTB

    Stay low, keep pushing in, and stay safe.


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber WaterbryVTfire's Avatar
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    It is/was just a matter of time before the "blame game" started.
    "If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."
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  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    Un-F*****G- believable. These poor Guys are only just dead and everyone is looking for a scapegoat. I am assuming the OIC made the best decisions he could based on the training and experience he has. If that is wrong, then that is not his fault but the fault of the system that allowed that to happen.

    For my money, at a fire of that size, I would have had a walk around before taking over then would have stayed at the front, relying on the experience and training of my Junior Officers to provide me with up to date iinformation. That is the system we use and the system I was brough tup with.

    However, this was Charleston and not London, I was several thousand miles away and there is no way I am going to play Armchiar Fire Chief at one of the costliest Fires in over 30 years.

    My best wishes and strength to a fellow Chief who never deserved to have that hand dealt to himself and the Crews under his Command.
    Steve Dude
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    www.fireservice.co.uk

    London Fire Brigade...."Can Do"


    'Irony'... It's a British thing.

  4. #4
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    Would it have killed Peterson (the NFPA guy) to have simply stated something like, "It would be best to let the official investigation conclude..."
    rather than immediately jumping on a reporter's question that he had to know would be used in this fashion?

    What a puke.

  5. #5
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    Would it have killed Peterson (the NFPA guy) to have simply stated something like, "It would be best to let the official investigation conclude..."
    rather than immediately jumping on a reporter's question that he had to know would be used in this fashion?

    What a puke.
    He was probably answering in the general, not specifically to the situation at hand. The job of a PIO/Public Affairs Officer/Press Secretary/Spokesman is tough and as can be seen here, pretty darn thankless. Your words can be used correctly but out of context; if you say no comment to everything you look like you are hiding something; if you answer every question, one will be answered wrong in someone's eyes; Peterson answered a question about tactics and strategy, not about the actions of anyone firefighter last Monday night.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    He was probably answering in the general, not specifically to the situation at hand. The job of a PIO/Public Affairs Officer/Press Secretary/Spokesman is tough and as can be seen here, pretty darn thankless. Your words can be used correctly but out of context; if you say no comment to everything you look like you are hiding something; if you answer every question, one will be answered wrong in someone's eyes; Peterson answered a question about tactics and strategy, not about the actions of anyone firefighter last Monday night.
    He answered a question from a Charleston reporter, asking essentially, "Did this guy screw up".

    If he couldn't see where that was going, he isn't bright enough to hold the job he does.

    I suspect he just couldn't resist the temptation to advance the cause of the standards his organization prefers, when what he should have done is refused to armchair quarterback until the investigation is complete.

  7. #7
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaterbryVTfire View Post
    It is/was just a matter of time before the "blame game" started.
    I knew the "blame game" was coming, but it started about 2 days before I figured it would...I figured the mutts would at least let the last brother be laid to rest before they started, but I guess I gave them too much credit...

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    Some of the comments after the article are very upsetting. Alot of quarterbacks in their own little perfect world of firefighting.

  9. #9
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    Default blame game

    I agree with randsc about the spokesman for NFPA. Yes this is spiraling into the blame game as it always does when something tragic happens. Last time i checked NFPA were standards / guidlines not official SOP's. They for guidlines for us to use and modify to your departments specific needs. The chief was there and in charge and used his judgement to act in the best possible way that he could. I am sorry for the chief and the rest of his men for their tragic loss of nine fireman. It is sad that media needs to place blame and twist stories and make this even harder for members of the department.

    C Fisher
    LGFD

  10. #10
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randsc View Post
    He answered a question from a Charleston reporter, asking essentially, "Did this guy screw up".

    If he couldn't see where that was going, he isn't bright enough to hold the job he does.

    I suspect he just couldn't resist the temptation to advance the cause of the standards his organization prefers, when what he should have done is refused to armchair quarterback until the investigation is complete.
    He was asked a legit question, and answered it in the general term that is all that can provided at this point in an investigation. He did his job, he answered a question correctly, he did not put any blame on any one. If AC Garvin followed the SOP/SOG's of Charleston than there is nothing to this, but the reporter has a job to do, and so do those in positions to answer the reporters questions truthfully.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  11. #11
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LGFD36 View Post
    I agree with randsc about the spokesman for NFPA. Yes this is spiraling into the blame game as it always does when something tragic happens. Last time i checked NFPA were standards / guidlines not official SOP's. They for guidlines for us to use and modify to your departments specific needs. The chief was there and in charge and used his judgement to act in the best possible way that he could. I am sorry for the chief and the rest of his men for their tragic loss of nine fireman. It is sad that media needs to place blame and twist stories and make this even harder for members of the department.

    C Fisher
    LGFD
    The media is not placing blame, they are just providing the story to the public. If we do not answer their questions correctly than we are essentailly keeping the truth from the public. The public is not stupid, when reports start having agendas, they can read between the lines.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  12. #12
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    The media is not placing blame, they are just providing the story to the public. .

    Read the Reader's Comments following the story; if the media isn't placing blame, some of our so-called "brothers" sure are...

  13. #13
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    The whole story isn't out yet. In the end we may never know all the details but we'll know much more than we do now..

    We should, however, be prepared for the possibility that mistakes were made. We should be prepared for the possibility that some mistakes may be attributable to individuals. We, as a profession, are nothing if we aren't collectively willing to assume full responsibility for our actions both as a profession and as individuals and learn from them.

    If that's the case, we will also have to remember that making mistakes doesn't make someone a bad person nor does it make anyone less of a "Brother" for acknowledging that mistakes were made.

    The objective of any good post-incident review is to fix problems; not to fix blame.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    The whole story isn't out yet. In the end we may never know all the details but we'll know much more than we do now..

    We should, however, be prepared for the possibility that mistakes were made. We should be prepared for the possibility that some mistakes may be attributable to individuals. We, as a profession, are nothing if we aren't collectively willing to assume full responsibility for our actions both as a profession and as individuals and learn from them.

    If that's the case, we will also have to remember that making mistakes doesn't make someone a bad person nor does it make anyone less of a "Brother" for acknowledging that mistakes were made.

    The objective of any good post-incident review is to fix problems; not to fix blame.
    Agreed. We should accept the possibility that mistakes were made, and be prepared to accept them and learn from them.

    That doesn't change the fact that we know basically nothing at this point, and should not be speculating in the press.

  15. #15
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    If that's the case, we will also have to remember that making mistakes doesn't make someone a bad person nor does it make anyone less of a "Brother" for acknowledging that mistakes were made.

    .
    DM, I agree that acknowledging mistakes doesn't make anyone less of a brother WHEN ALL THE FACTS ARE KNOWN and the jury has rested, so to speak, but for crying out loud the last of the 9 won't be buried until tomorrow much less there being an official report being released and already there are mongrels on the paper's Reader's Comments section belittling the AC, Chief Thomas, the Charleston Fire dept., etc., and I think that's shameful

  16. #16
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    Some of the stuff in that article is misleading at best to tell the public.
    "Federal regulations say the IC must stay outside?"
    Transfer of command must be formal?
    And we have seen over and over how little NIOSH knows about actual firefighting tactics. I find it appalling that the general public is going to think that NIOSH is the ones who set the standard. While some things may have been handled differently we need a better panel of investigators that we as the Fire Service will respect. When someone from NIOSH has any comment to the press before the conclusion of the investigation, its wrong. Not only should he be fired, but we should tell NIOSH we will no longer willfully participate in their ridiculous studies.
    We should all want to learn from this to honor our brothers, but try doing so without making a scapegoat of other brothers.

  17. #17
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    Michael Parrotta, president of the South Carolina Professional Firefighters Association: "...We need incident commanders on the outside. Him going in and out, that deters him from doing his job as the incident commander."
    Seems like for a Union guy he's kinda tossin the Chief under the bus.
    Are they in a different Union than the chiefs?
    Surprised by the comment, that's all I'm sayin.

  18. #18
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Gotta say the Mayor seems to be doing it right. Not impressed by the NFPA guy but then again why would I be? Just some more unfunded mandates. When the official report comes out is when the learning starts. It is a terrible tragedy that eventually some good will come of.Remember they wanted to string Chief Macnamee out to dry too,but he did the right thing.As hard as it was,he made the right decision and stuck to it.I have a lot of respect for him and hope some day to be able to have a sit down session.Nothing about this business is easy,and some days are worse than others. T.C.

  19. #19
    Forum Member KnightnPBIArmor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitllesmertz1 View Post
    Michael Parrotta, president of the South Carolina Professional Firefighters Association: "...We need incident commanders on the outside. Him going in and out, that deters him from doing his job as the incident commander."
    Seems like for a Union guy he's kinda tossin the Chief under the bus.
    Are they in a different Union than the chiefs?
    Surprised by the comment, that's all I'm sayin.
    I saw this guy being interviewed on TV the day before the memorial, and the impression I got was he was trying to throw the entire officer corp of the department under the bus, and was trying to make himself look good at the expense of others...maybe one of the brothers from SC who know him better can prove me wrong, but that was the impression I got, and if it is wrong I will apologize in advance...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor View Post
    I saw this guy being interviewed on TV the day before the memorial, and the impression I got was he was trying to throw the entire officer corp of the department under the bus, and was trying to make himself look good at the expense of others...maybe one of the brothers from SC who know him better can prove me wrong, but that was the impression I got, and if it is wrong I will apologize in advance...
    DING DING DING!!! Give that man a prize! He hit that target perfectly...

    there is no love loss between the IAFF and the Chiefs of the Charleston Fire Department. I for one will not be making any comments on the incident or anything else dealing with the Charleston Fire Department in a bad way.

    We just buried nine of our brothers for gods sake!!!! Give us a break and let us take a breather. I know the "Powers that be" have a job to do but at least wait until people have a chance to function somewhat normally.
    Always remember the CHARLESTON 9

    Captain Grant Mishoe, Curator of History
    North Charleston and American LaFrance Fire Museum
    "You'll never know where you're going until you remember where you came from"
    www.legacyofheroes.org
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