1. #1
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    Exclamation Controlled Roll ?????

    Looking for some help. I'm sure I already know the answer but my chief gave me the assignment to put this question out on the forum. Has anyone ever heard of a " controlled roll" during extrication ? What I am talking about is a vehicle on its side with patient in it and rescuers putting the vehicle back on all 4 tires by "controlled rolling" of the vehicle using just brute manpower. Here is the background behind this question. My FD took over extrication about 1 year ago from the local ambulance squad, at a recent MVA call the EMS chief wanted us to do a "controlled roll" , we refused. Later he was present at one of our extrication drills and he tried to convince us again that this was ok to do ! Problem is he has been in the EMS business for 20+ years and teaches at our county academy. Before we have a sit down to settle this once and for all I was asked to put this question out to the forum. We are also checking with all the standard extrication textbooks for info.

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    We just crib and shore from there, leave the car in it's position to avoid any further injury to the pt(s). I don't see why or how you could do a controlled roll and not risk further injury, especially if you are unable to assess as it is. It's too bad that this is what is coming out of EMS. EMS here is pretty good about letting us control the scene as far as stabilization etc so they can safely get to the pt, asssess and remove.

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    Nope never heard of it...and I wouldn't do it either!!! (I have been co-teaching and demonstrating vehicle rescue for most of the last 10 years.)

    A controlled roll cannot be controlled. The weight of the vehicle is too much. No matter how many firefighters you have. Stablization is done to keep the vehicle from moving correct? Obviously, rolling it onto its wheels prevents this. And then there is the whole C-spine issue when doing this. Where is the interior rescuer? And what is keeping him safe?
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    Default controled roll

    controlled what? I teach auto extrication and have for about 10 years. I have never in my 15 years of service heard of such nonsense. always stabilize in the position the vehicle is found.

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    With the correct equipment, absolutely. The key is, having the correct equipment. Hopefully, BigRig and/or Rescue101? will chime in here as we have had this discussion on the forums before.

    Using properly setup tow trucks, you can easily, safely, and well under control, roll a vehicle back on it's 4 wheels.

    Now, by simply using manpower to do so...no way in h@ll.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    This event would have no control if done by brute manpower flipping a vehicle back to a rest on wheels position. This has been done in the racing community for open wheel cars and others but with drivers secured by five point restaint belts. The people from a major racing series with Doctors approval have deemed this rollover manuver viable if the driver remains belted into his seat with HANS device and the head is stabilized to the seat prior to rolling it over. It is completed with trained wrecker crews and safety people.. With practice this works with race cars with safety equipment, but street vehicles not being controlled and lacking the safety equipment. Phhh!!

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    Roof it,that is where you would be incorrect.Would I do it?Absolutely.Just because you've never seen or done it does NOT mean it's not a viable technique.The control you have on a vehicle with a modern hyd. tow or Rescue truck is incredible.It COULD be done by hand but would be manpower and equipment intensive.Quick,smooth and easy with a trained,experienced tow truck operator.We did a drill in NY where we moved a vehicle off a Jersey barrier using just three FF's and a piece of rope and a piece of 2x6.They were amazed how little force it takes to move a vehicle once it's OFF its wheels. EMS has little exposure to the technique so many are leary of it.Just another tool for the box.Would I utilize it? Hehe,been there done that,got the T shirt.If you make it to a BRR class,you'll likely see the technique employed. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 06-27-2007 at 08:42 AM.

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    Rolling a vehicle back over by hand? Hahaha. I have an idea. How about this schmuck climb into a car that is on its side and we'll "controlled roll" it back onto its wheels by hand. Then we'll ask him if he still thinks it is a good idea.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    NM the doubter.There's a surprise.Actually it's quite easy to do "by hand".Requires two deadmen(anchor points)6 snatchblocks,two nylon straps,4 shackles,2 200' ropes and a couple 20' chains.With this setup you can upright,start/stop,and lower in COMPLETE control.Depending on the size of the vehicle it will take 6-10 people for the average passenger car or pickup truck.You rig equally both sides of the vehicle from opposite sides.As one side tensions the othe side releases,smoothly and evenly.We've uprighted a side resting 72 passenger school bus with 5 FF's before with proper rigging.Go get your smuck,I'll do it with the smuck and the medics inside,And given the choice of working upside down or rightside up,I know what their answer will be.It CAN be done SAFELY and easily.But you have to know rigging and blocks,plus physics. T.C.

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    Post Controlled roll

    mcl312, the only time I have ever heard or seen a car rolled over with the patient still inside was on the race track. At the international speedway that I volunteer at, we have been trained in this operation but have not needed to do it, yet.
    NASCAR teaches how to do it using two cables from one tow truck that are wrapped around the car and hooked together. One cable is retracted and the other extended at the same rate. This is a VERY tricky operation that requires a skillful tow truck operator and lots of practice. Also, it is only done AFTER the medics have checked over the driver and given the okay. If the medics say no, then it's cut and rip time.
    Remember, the drivers in the Nextel Cup and Busch cars are in a very sturdy and movement restrictive seat, but some bouncing can occur, so if there is even the hint of a cervical or spinal injury, no rolling. Stabilize as you would for a car on the street and go to work.
    In my opinon, doing any kind of rolling of a car with a patient still in the car, outside of the conditions I stated above, is a very bad idea and is just asking for trouble. Not only does it comprimise yours and the patients safety, but if it should cause or worsen an injury, well I hope you have a good lawyer and a very big wallet.
    "Your spill is our thrill."

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    Forgive my ignorance on this matter, as I have never done a vehicle extrication ... But why would you want to right a vehicle with the patient still inside. Why take the chance that you could possibly hurt the patient more? I don't understand why this risk would be taken.

    If somone could explain to me, I would appreciate it.

    Thanks!
    Anthony

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    The most obvious solution I guess is one where the car is fully surrounded by relatively impenetrable obstacles such as walls, concrete barricades, earth (i.e. a ditch), heavy commercial vehicles, etc. And that is assuming you cannot tunnel in from another side. The extended time required to tunnel might theoretically be saved by simply righting the the vehicle. I guess I too would need to "see" a specific example to say there was no other reasonable means.


    I would never say never to a particular technique, but I would probably only try it with a wrecker and good anchorage in both directions. If you cannot stop and start the motion (as well as maintain the position) with absolute precision, it is a real roll of the dice. Manpower alone is not stable enough, and cannot react to sudden emergencies such as a flash fire, or structural failure with any degree of safety.


    The idea of simply flipping the vehicle and trying to lower it to the wheels under control is pretty sketchy (I've flipped a couple of cars with buddies in my college days). But, if the victim was trapped UNDER the car, and no occupants, I would probably be much more willing to give it the old college toss.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Such a technique was used by a neighboring department. The car was on its passenger side, driver still strapped into the driver seat ( hanging 3-4 feet above ground, as it were )

    It was a multiple vehicle MVA they were called to assist one of their neighbors with. Many cars, many firefighters, but due to the number of serious extrications and the serious injuries of all those different patients, they were left short of the equipment needed to stabilize the vehicle adequately. Couldn't prioritize much, they all had to be extricated now.

    After doing what they could, and the patient going downhill quickly, they decided to put the vehicle back on its wheels using manpower alone. Again, short on equipment, couldn't wait for yet another jurisdiction to arive with more. So they did the best they could with what they had.

    Did it work in this case? Yes. Would I ever suggest doing this except as a last resort? No.

    As for the crew who did this succesfully... they want more cribbing. Lots more cribbing. And maybe some struts.

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    In the situation you described, using manpower, for me would be an absolute no way!
    As the vehicle brakes a certain angle, the weight of the vehicle would shift and the closer it gets to the upright position the more of the weight would be increased on the men. This could put rescuers at risk of injury, and at the brake over point, if the men found out they could not control the weight, they would not be able to set it back up because it would take the same strength to brake back over that point, which means they would have to let it drop with the patient in it, or strain to set it back up and run the risk of it going on over on the roof.
    As TC said if you ever get the chance to get in the Big Rig class, you will learn just how ease it would be to do this with the right equipment. most every class performs a scenario in which they set a full size school bus up by hand and it is none in full control. But most department do not carry that much equipment on their truck.
    Also like he said this is a very simple and very controlled task for a double cable hydraulic wrecker. they can roll it as slow as you want and stop it at any point.
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    Yes, Have seen it done and it is an approved technique. We had a roll over a while ago and the decision was made to roll it over with patient inside, but the paramedics were on scene and treating, they were happy with it and a paramedic stayed inside with the patient to monitor. All actions are at the paramedics call.

    That said, it is very rare and it is normally a last resort.

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    Lee,It CAN be done(easily)with manpower as long as you have the rigging(as I outlined)to give you the proper mechanical advantage.You need to have two suitable deadmen(natural or man provided)and rig as I briefly outlined.The outcome in control at this point is the same as a tow truck.One line is tensioned and one let off(slowly). Never perform in public what you haven't practiced in private.This procedure is generally reserved for areas you can't conveniently get a tow truck.But it IS viable and it WILL work.When the weight shifts in the three block system you will never know it,the lines just reverse roles.Don't take my word for it;TRY IT. I'll do it day in and day out with no issues whatsoever.There ARE training advantages to owning a Towing company,hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Landy01 View Post
    Yes, Have seen it done and it is an approved technique. We had a roll over a while ago and the decision was made to roll it over with patient inside, but the paramedics were on scene and treating, they were happy with it and a paramedic stayed inside with the patient to monitor. All actions are at the paramedics call.

    That said, it is very rare and it is normally a last resort.
    All actions are at the paramedics call? Maybe we have a different system here, but if there is extrication needed we are in command (Capt is in command) and will not turn over command until he feels it is safe to do so. If the paramedics say to turn the car back on it's wheels and Capt feels it is not safe to do so (because he has much more extrication experience than the paramedics) he will not do so and we will take another route to keep everyone safe. I don't think paramedics should be making the calls when it comes to extrication, but that's clearly just my personal opinion.

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    Around here the medics don't call the tactical shots for the ex, but they do get a say in when to go, and when to stop. If they don't think it is safe for good reason, we will work together find a better way. Having said that, V-ex is the FD's role, and they do it thier way.

    But in many smaller dept's districts, the Paramedics have probably seen and done {i.e. participated in) more extrications than the FD's. You can't rule out thier value.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    Here in Queensland extrication is a fire responsability, but we do no medical work (ambulances are a seperate service). When we have an extrication we handle it but they have say on when to go, when to stop, if they need him out quicker etc.... . It comes down to communication they are there for the patient and nothing else, when i say it is at their call, if they are not happy with a decision they will tell you and we find another way.

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    It's bad enough that we have well intentioned citizens flipping overturned cars back over ("Hey Jim, let's flip this sumbi@#h back over & pull 'er out thru that their winda") , I don' think that we as "trained" rescuers should be doing this (at least by hand with no formal training, with a trained heavy duty wrecker operator, then maybe). I've been to many a rollover over the years with different depts. in different regions and have never seen this done (I did a roll over a few years ago in a "SH%^KICKER" town where they showed up in a 80's vintage pumper...with a brand new Gold Series Hurst tool BTW...and even they didn't do this!!). Standard practice was just to go to work using extrication tools to remove the vehicle from around the pt. I can honestly say that having been the inside rescuer many a time, I would not be too thrilled if someone told me "hey, hang on in there, we're gonna flip the car back over....WTF!!! You're gonna do what??!! With me where??!!! NO NO NO, I don't think so!!!

    I'm always open to new ideas but this sounds like a way to get our people and the folks who need our help hurt. While maybe this is a viable option for some folks, I would propose looking at what other options you have be it tools
    (sawzalls...cheap yet effective) or techniques (maybe just cutting the windshield would provide enough access??).

    Just my 2 cents...Stay Safe...when dealing with a rolled over vehicle, I'd use the Vegas slogan for dealing with these..."What rolls over, STAYS rolled over"...

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    The doubters will keep on saying it's impossible and can't be done safely.The learners who can think and act outside the box will acquire a vehicle and try it.Some will succeed,others will have to practice.I can do this in my sleep(good thing since that's my normal condition at 0 dark thirty)I'm not the one you have to convince,I've done it,I know it works,and depending on circumstance I would not hesitate for one second to employ it if I think it will improve the survivability of the patient or shorten the extrication time(safely).It is NO JOB for an amateur,it must be practiced like any other extrication module to be proficient in it's application.Like I said earlier,acquire or borrow some equipment and try it.Try it several times and THEN come back and tell me it's not a viable tool for the box.I'm betting you won't.This process can be done so smoothly and gradually(by either hand rigging or tow truck)that I regard it as a better method for inverted patients than some of the other removal methods I've seen employed.You don't even need straps you can use the shoulder seatbelt.But I prefer an 6-12 ft nylon strap.In any event,if you want to spark up your evolution,try it.Maybe it's not for you.But I bet after you do it a few times,your mind set just might change.Half of the Rescue techniques I use with the tow truck I learned by "playing"in the junkyard.You quickly learn what works and what doesn't.Controlled rolls WORK! T.C.

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    It must be nice to have so many firefighters available on scene right away that they can all grab the car and lower its entire weight down slowly and gently under control without it bouncing on the suspension or the other side kicking out.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    With proper rigging it doesn't take all that many FFs to do it.With a tow truck it doesn't take ANY ffs to do it.And SOMETIMES it's the ONLY way you're going to do it.And if you've never been in a position where you've had to think about or do it: Well bully for you.See my last related post.Before you continue to discount the theory,I suggest you try it in a training setting.Many times we have utilized a different method of achieveing the same result even if it wasn't as effective as a lesser known method just because we knew the "other" method better.I remember a TT accident in across the pond a while back in which I suggested an seemingly unorthodox method for.In post incident training,the solution was found to be the quickest and safest cure for the incident.I KNOW what I can do with lines and blocks(rigging),are YOU as well prepared?Snatch blocks and lines have many,many rescue applications.Be familiar with them. T.C.

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    Rescue101

    I am not sure if I would do this yet ... but I am open-minded, at least I think I am.

    Do you have any pictures of this being done? My imagination can not see this, so a picture would be worth a thousand words to me.

    If you do, could you email them to me at GDSQDCR@cocmast.net

    Thanks!

    Anthony

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    Nope,I don't.Probably find a similar scenerio at Wreckmaster.com except it will be a "heavy"being rolled not a car.Try this,put a car on it's side or roof.Wrap an 8-12 foot strap around each B post.Attach the working end of a three part line so it pulls on the strap 90 degrees(straight away)from the B post.Do the same for the other side.Now both ENDS(anchored side)of the three part line have to be secured to something HEAVIER than the object you are uprighting.Keep tension on both working lines but as the vehicle uprights you control the decent by the amount of tension you maintain on the "fall"line.Once the vehicle overcomes the last center of gravity ALL control will be handled by the fall line,Keep the uprighting line tensioned for vehicle stability.A little clearer now? T.C.

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