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    Default Thermal Imaging MASK ?

    So i was thinking how to make the TIC better not that it isn't awesome enough but how to let every firefighter have one. And i came up with this thought and i don't really know how effective or good it would be so lets hear some opinions.


    What about a Thermal Imaging Camera thats integrated into a Mask just a push of a button would turn it on and the screen would come across the your mask. mask is still transparent so you could use it with or without it.

    Anyway thats my idea would love to hear what you guys think.

    Rob

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    Its an interesting idea, and one I'm sure the major manufacturers are working on, along with GPS.. and other fancy gizmos.

    My concern with such a system would be how heavy does it make the mask/system and how durable would it be? We had a helmet-mounted TIC for a while and the thing was awful. It was heavy and cumbersome. Granted, it was also one of the first generation TICs.

    My opinion is that its a pretty cool idea, but its also one more thing that could get overcomplicated and fragile.
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    We were just talking about this at work the other day...with electronic devices getting smaller and smaller I have no doubt that TI will be an intergral part of the PPE ensemble one day, and I'd be willing to bet it's not as far away as we think.

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    Very Good questions...as for the weight issue..what about evenly distributing it throughout the mask. and for the durability i really dont know what holds up to both getting dropped or hit or fallen on and fire resistant...Kevlar ? a certain type of plastic ?

    I thought this topic would be bouncing off the walls...hopefully it picks up

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglesrule1024 View Post
    Very Good questions...as for the weight issue..what about evenly distributing it throughout the mask.
    The idea is not that far removed from the LandWarror system for the Army.. basically integrating communication/imaging/GPS gear into a soldier's helmet.

    I agree with PBI, that with miniturization it will no doubtedly come down the pike. What's missing is a resiliant way to display the image without affecting the usability (and seal!) of the mask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    The idea is not that far removed from the LandWarror system for the Army.. basically integrating communication/imaging/GPS gear into a soldier's helmet.

    I agree with PBI, that with miniturization it will no doubtedly come down the pike. What's missing is a resiliant way to display the image without affecting the usability (and seal!) of the mask.
    Thats actually what i was thinking off of...as for usability and seal..what if the mask is extended a bit while keeping the seal the same ?

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    Default Heads Up

    I have mixed feelings about this. Every time we get another gadget (and more batteries) on SCBA, it creates a bigger maintenance (and operational reliability) headache.

    However, I am a big fan of good, reliable technology. Several months ago I was reading about a heads up display that projected the image directly on the retina. This system was in use by mechanics to view repair manuals while working on vehicles. Probably a small jump to put something like this inside an SCBA facepiece! When reading the article, I was thinking about projecting thermal image data directly on the normal view of the world (along with being able to look at the preplan, status of the SCBA, and a host of other info). Really useful if you can do that and continue to pay attention to the key fire behavior indicators and perform tactical operations (this might be the big issue).
    Ed Hartin, MS, EFO, MIFireE

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglesrule1024 View Post
    So i was thinking how to make the TIC better not that it isn't awesome enough but how to let every firefighter have one. And i came up with this thought and i don't really know how effective or good it would be so lets hear some opinions.


    What about a Thermal Imaging Camera thats integrated into a Mask just a push of a button would turn it on and the screen would come across the your mask. mask is still transparent so you could use it with or without it.

    Anyway thats my idea would love to hear what you guys think.

    Rob

    Like this thing? http://www.thefirestore.com/store/ca...maging_camera/
    NJ FFII/EMT-B

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    there is a university or a company somewhere that developed/developing a system thath as a small like 1.5 inch square screen that is transparent when turned off, and right in front of your eye making the screen seem bigger when turned on. It actually links every firefighter together with incident command, and allows incident command to give them a drawn blueprint of the building showing them where the fire is and possible life hazards.

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    Default With new technology must come caution

    As I know, the new guy's opinion means absolutely squat here, as in most places, so I'll try to tread lightly.

    Eaglesrule1024 is obviously one of us who seeks to be the best at what we do ( or in my case, did ), by looking for ways to improve on tools, techniques and tactics. More of us should do that. The idea of incorporating a thermal imagine device viewer into the facepiece of an SCBA is simply brilliant, and ( with apologies ) has been around for awhile. We sci-fi fans probably started thinking about it after the film Predator was released. However, at that time, there was not any practical means by which to accomplish it. And, it was put aside, like those flying cars they said we would have in the 21st century ( Still waiting! ).

    But, be that as it may, it is a great idea whose time may have, or soon will, come. With enough pushing on the part of the guys (and girls) in the trenches the powers that be will start harping for it and it will happen.

    My one concern with the entire premise, however, is something which the military has encountered in the past when adding insturmentation to aircraft, sensory overload. Pilots would spend to much time studying their insturments ( and, who doesn't, I ask you? ) that they would simply forget to look out of the cockpit and fly right into the ground.

    I would worry that too many displays in front of a firefighters eyes, particularly one who is stressed, could lead to disorientation, "tunnel vision" or "brain lock". The other problem, which I am sure we have all seen at some time, is overdependence on the technology and atrophy of the skills and techniques used prior to the arrival of the next greatest thing.

    Just my two cents and, yeah, you probably owe me some change.

    Stay safe and watch eachothers' backs.
    Last edited by formerOHvolly; 06-27-2007 at 12:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytallica45 View Post
    no not like this...im not talking about a Helmet mounted TIC. Im talking about a TIC Mask its integrated into your Mask you know that thing you breathe compressed air with.

    I thought off the idea while looking over the engines cabin and just stared at the TIC and how big it is and how only one guy has one and how to make it light-weight hands-free and no added extra equipment then looking at the mask and saying hmm what about putting them together. And after that i just kept brainstorming of idea how to think of it to make it work. Hopefully they are developing this as we speak.

    Rob

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    A HUD type display, similar to what some car companies are doing with their speedometers (projecting them on the windshield) may be possible in the near future. Who knows?

    Possibly, something like this:

    http://home.howstuffworks.com/smart-window3.htm

    where, when a button is pused, the mask becomes a tv screen and the thermal image is projected.

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    The image would have to be displayed on the mask. If you think about it if the image is displayed outside it would require more things for it to be produced. But Maybe a double layer like a 2 paned window or just one if its possible turning on and off with a push of a button

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    Quote Originally Posted by formerOHvolly View Post
    I would worry that too many displays in front of a firefighters eyes, particularly one who is stressed, could lead to disorientation, "tunnel vision" or "brain lock". The other problem, which I am sure we have all seen at some time, is overdependence on the technology and atrophy of the skills and techniques used prior to the arrival of the next greatest thing.
    This is definitely a worrisome possibility that can only be solved through training once this technology is available.

    "The reason Smokey Bear had no children? Every time his wife got hot, he beat her with a shovel."
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    while it sounds like a good idea, what happens if it malfunctions? what happens when you have a white out effect in your mast that you can't shut off? or it turns on at a hazmat incident, when you def don't want it?

    don't get me wrong, I love new gadgets as much as the next guy. But speaking as one who had a HUD malfunction, even for 10 sec in training, it can both throw you for a loop, as well as cause you to lose focus.

    I may be in the minority, but when it comes to my air supply (mask and SCBA), I would rather keep it simple. fewer parts to break, fewer things to go wrong
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    while it sounds like a good idea, what happens if it malfunctions? what happens when you have a white out effect in your mast that you can't shut off? or it turns on at a hazmat incident, when you def don't want it?

    don't get me wrong, I love new gadgets as much as the next guy. But speaking as one who had a HUD malfunction, even for 10 sec in training, it can both throw you for a loop, as well as cause you to lose focus.

    I may be in the minority, but when it comes to my air supply (mask and SCBA), I would rather keep it simple. fewer parts to break, fewer things to go wrong
    I get what your saying what about putting a kill switch or button in it. shutting it off completely ?

    Rob

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    I could care less for one. Just another deal to make the cost of things go up and make more depend on it and lose their basic skills.

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    I'd rather concentrate on getting adequate manpower. But if you want to go the "pipe dreams" way, how about sprinklers everywhere? TIC's won't save someone's life if they are in the fire room...sprinklers may.


    Even more realistic...how about alarms/protection systems at our own firehouses? (now that's a pipe dream)
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    I'd rather concentrate on getting adequate manpower. But if you want to go the "pipe dreams" way, how about sprinklers everywhere? TIC's won't save someone's life if they are in the fire room...sprinklers may.


    Even more realistic...how about alarms/protection systems at our own firehouses? (now that's a pipe dream)
    Already have those alarms/protections in mine. So i guess i can dream now ? LOL

    Rob

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    Default Valid points, Bones

    Still the new guy, so for what it's worth...

    The lack of adequate manpower on scene is a troublesome issue, particularly in this age of declining revenues, increased costs, rising demands for service, and expanded missions (Haz-mat, Technical Rescue, EMS First Responder/Patient Transport, CBRNE/WMD, etc.). It is a sad statement of fact, to say the days of five to seven men on an engine and two piece companies are, as far as I know at least, bygone memories. Having to do more with less is, in many instances, the name of the game, now.

    I agree that it is an issue, maybe even the biggest issue for some, but not the only issue.

    Nor, frankly is the lack of sprinklers in most structures. In a perfect world there would be automatic sprinklers in every occupied dwelling, place of assembly, school, church, nightclub, bar, brothel, barn and retail, wholesale and manufacturing occupancy in the nation. But, it isn't a perfect world, and we have to play the cards we're delt.

    But, the points Bones42 makes are still valid; i.e. the need for more resources (manpower)needs to be addressed and splinklers (along with smoke detectors) save lives, and there should be a concerted effort on the part of firefighters (career and volunteer/POC) and our various organizations to bring about increased manpower availability and an increase in the number of sprinklered buildings; and to those I say:

    A. Laws requiring sprinklers in more structures can be passed, given enough weight being brought to bear upon the lawmakers. If only we could unite enough registered voters behind such a measure. It may just be necessary to find the one sad factual story that brings the fervoured outcry the politicos heed, and show the right group of citizens to start it rolling.

    And, technology could, possibly play a role in overcoming the arguments against retrofitting existing structures, in that computer aided design and modern materials, like cross-linked poyethelene which can be snaked through walls like a cable, could lower materials and labor costs.

    B. When faced with a known lack of manpower where additional hiring (or recruiting) is not practical, preplanned or automatic mutual aid or additional resources being dispatched on size-up of a "Working Fire" could go a long way in resolving the issue. But, again, this may require a poltical solution in that the elected officials often pooh-pooh on such ideas as AMAR, boundry dropping, collabrative purchases, etc.

    But, my earlier concern about sensory overload not withstanding, can't we agree finding a technological innovation - such as TI in SCBA facepieces which would allow each individual firefighter to increase the area searched while reducing the time it takes to do it, or anything else that saves time, money, effort or, more importantly, lives - is not any less important.

    It may just mean more lives saved until everything is sprinkled.

    Well that's another two cents worth, from me.
    Last edited by formerOHvolly; 06-28-2007 at 12:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by formerOHvolly View Post
    Still the new guy, so for what it's worth...

    The lack of adequate manpower on scene is a troublesome issue, particularly in this age of declining revenues, increased costs, rising demands for service, and expanded missions (Haz-mat, Technical Rescue, EMS First Responder/Patient Transport, CBRNE/WMD, etc.). It is a sad statement of fact, to say the days of five to seven men on an engine and two piece companies are, as far as I know at least, bygone memories. Having to do more with less is, in many instances, the name of the game, now.

    I agree that it is an issue, maybe even the biggest issue for some, but not the only issue.

    Nor, frankly is the lack of sprinklers in most structures. In a perfect world there would be automatic sprinklers in every occupied dwelling, place of assembly, school, church, nightclub, bar, brothel, barn and retail, wholesale and manufacturing occupancy in the nation. But, it isn't a perfect world, and we have to play the cards we're delt.

    But, the points Bones42 makes are still valid, the need for more resources (manpower)needs to be addressed and splinklers (along with smoke detectors) save lives, and there should be a concerted effort on the part of firefighters (career and volunteer/POC) and our various organizations to bring about increased manpower availability and an increase in sprinklered buildings, and to those I say:

    A. Laws requiring sprinklers in more structures can be passed, given enough weight being brought to bear upon the lawmakers. If only we could unite enough registered voters behind such a measure. It may just be necessary to find the one sad factual story that brings the fervoured outcry the politicos heed, and show the right group of citizens to start it rolling.

    And, technology could, possibly play a role in overcoming the arguments against retrofitting existing structures, in that computer aided design and modern materials, like cross-linked poyethelene which can be snaked through walls like a cable, could lower materials and labor costs.

    B. When faced with a known lack of manpower where additional hiring (or recruiting) is not practical, preplanned or automatic mutual aid or additional resources being dispatched on size-up of a "Working Fire" could go a long way in resolving the issue. But, again, this may require a poltical solution in that the elected officials often pooh-pooh on such ideas as AMAR, boundry dropping, collaborative purchases, etc.

    But, can't we agree finding a technological innovation such as a TI in SCBA facepieces which would allow each individual firefighter to increase the area searched while reducing the time it takes to do it is not any less important. It may mean more lives saved until everything is sprinkled.

    Well that's another two cents worth, from me.


    Very Very Good. Great Add to it.


    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    while it sounds like a good idea, what happens if it malfunctions? what happens when you have a white out effect in your mast that you can't shut off? or it turns on at a hazmat incident, when you def don't want it?

    don't get me wrong, I love new gadgets as much as the next guy. But speaking as one who had a HUD malfunction, even for 10 sec in training, it can both throw you for a loop, as well as cause you to lose focus.

    I may be in the minority, but when it comes to my air supply (mask and SCBA), I would rather keep it simple. fewer parts to break, fewer things to go wrong
    Or what if you need a TI in an environment where you don't need a mask? Search and rescue outside; size up at a fire or car accident; alarm call/odor investigation; evaluating a scene with down power lines...whatever it is. Yes, a TI in the mask would be cool. But it would unintentionally limit people to using the TI only when they had their masks on. There are many more uses than just navigating in a structure fire.
    My comments are sometimes educated, sometimes informed and sometimes just blowing smoke...but they are always mine and mine alone and do not reflect upon anyone else (especially my employer).

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    Instead of TIC's in mask, why not practice searching? Technology fails. Often when you need it most. Why not drill drill drill on the basics. Leave the TIC for the officer so he can keep tabs on you.

    I don't need anything making the SCBA heavier, bulkier, more complicated or more prone to failure. I don't even want that worthless HUD air display on it.
    Co 11
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