View Poll Results: Do you think there should be criminal charges in the Baltimore training death?

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  • Yes

    15 62.50%
  • No

    4 16.67%
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  1. #1
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    Default Should there be Criminal Chaarges in the death of the Baltimore Recruit?

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...Id=39&id=55306

    The precedent was set in Lairdsville. Do you think that charges should also be brought in this case as well?

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    'Trotter, when I read the title, my first response was to say "I am going to sit the fence on this one. I was not there, and am not part of the investigation team."

    After having read through the attached article...... while I have a personal opinion.... I must refrain from comment still. Other than to agree... Lairdsville comes to mind.
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    I voted yes, based on the information in the article. If, in fact, multiple fires were lit on multiple floors, by multiple people, that was an unbelievably stupid thing to do. If, in fact, the backup line was rolled-up on a tailboard, that was an unbelievably stupid thing to do. If, in fact, the safety officer was outside the entire time, that was an unbelievably stupid thing to do. If, in fact, there was a large quantity of trash and debris in the building during this training, that was an unbelievably stupid thing to do. Too many stupid things done by people who had too many years of experience and should've known better. NFPA 1403 is an extremely easy document to read and follow to the letter on any live fire training. Training officers in Baltimore should not have had any problem obtaining, reading, and following the recommendations in that paper. Too many stupid actions to not have criminal charges. "I've always done it this way before and never had a problem," doesn't cut the mustard. You were just damned lucky before, and it finally caught up with you. As an instructor, it is incumbent upon you to read about LODDs and close calls, and training accidents, SO THAT THE SAME THING DOESN'T HAPPEN TO YOU OR YOUR PEOPLE. There is way too much arrogance in the fire service.

    And now I see they are having the typical, knee-jerk reaction by declaring that there will be no live fire training conducted in acquired structures any more. All burn tower work. That's it: we didn't train our training officers to do their job right, so we'll dumb the whole thing down and "engineer" safety.
    Last edited by jaybird210; 06-28-2007 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Fyred Up helped me to not look stupid, too!
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    I voted yes, but I truely feel the burden shoudn't stop at the two instructors on site. There is not a doubt in my mind that the "higher ups" didn't know what was going on. Just my opinion though!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTFIRE80 View Post
    I voted yes, but I truely feel the burden shoudn't stop at the two instructors on site. There is not a doubt in my mind that the "higher ups" didn't know what was going on. Just my opinion though!!
    Sadly, this is partly why I am witholding direct comment. We saw what happened with Lairdsville, and the fiasco of who zoomed who and did what when. In particular were the chief officers who all claimed amnesty and got out of taking responsibility for anything that "did nor maybe did not happen during the incident in question, if in fact there was an incident on that day".
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

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    Based on that 1 article, I'd say Yes.

    But that is just 1 article. Final decision would come later.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    'Trotter, when I read the title, my first response was to say "I am going to sit the fence on this one. I was not there, and am not part of the investigation team."

    After having read through the attached article...... while I have a personal opinion.... I must refrain from comment still. Other than to agree... Lairdsville comes to mind.
    I can respect that. I'm just curious to see what people think about it. What struck me as really odd is that after Lairdsville we still have people not following the standards. I would have thought the entire fire service would have taken notice and taken mesaures to assure that never happened again.

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    Hey Jaybird....you might want to edit to chnage Boston to Baltimore.

    Anyways, Alan Baird was prosecuted for causing injury and death and the basis of the case was failure to follow accepted standards. Sounds kind of familiar doesn't it? So the answer is yes there should be prosecution in this case. The question is how high up in the FD did they know this type of thing was happening and that my friends will be the clinker in this case.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    I can respect that. I'm just curious to see what people think about it. What struck me as really odd is that after Lairdsville we still have people not following the standards. I would have thought the entire fire service would have taken notice and taken mesaures to assure that never happened again.
    'Trotter, unfortunately far TOO MANY say "Well, we've always done it this way without any problems before." I've even caught myself saying that - not on the fire ground but that does not really matter - we all say those words at one point or another.

    Thats a funny thing about "Human Nature": we are doomed to repeat ourselves in so many ways.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  10. #10
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    Post Well...........

    I've posted on another thread with this, but I'll repeat it here. The Battalion Chief that has been fired as a result of this tragedy is a friend of long standing. Because of that, I do not expect to have any comment beyond saying that this is a lot bigger than just one person, And, I think that it will continue to drag on for quite some time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods View Post
    I've posted on another thread with this, but I'll repeat it here. The Battalion Chief that has been fired as a result of this tragedy is a friend of long standing. Because of that, I do not expect to have any comment beyond saying that this is a lot bigger than just one person, And, I think that it will continue to drag on for quite some time.
    Thanks for the insight. And I agree, it is more than just the on-site folks. It should include the administration as well.

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