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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    You may not like my answer....but....

    the tool is not the important part. The operator is. A well trained operator with a crappy tool will get the job done. A poorly trained operator with the "best" tool will still fail.
    Never heard put so plainly, but TRUE! Loyalty to an extrication tool can be very back-stabbing. All tools do the exact same thing...spread...squeeze...cut . There are 5 things to consider when looking at extrication tools. Company, Product, People, Service, Training.

    I can make any tool work successfully, and any new hire can make any tool look like the biggest design flaw. There are good tool manufacturers being sold by bad distributors, and good service oriented distributors selling to people. Either way it works.


  2. #22
    Forum Member fftrainer's Avatar
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    Lets get this straight... its painfully obvious that a tool is not going to hop off the shelf and take a door off and likewise a firefighter is not going to rip the door of with his bear hands, but the best tool is what the competant operator likes.

    We use TNT tools (close to a dozen tools and a couple of motors) and I love them, however I used to love Hurst because it was all I knew. I recently assisted a nearby squad with an extrication class for some new members and refresher for older members and we used their hurst tools. They worked fine at accomplishing the task, but I think I could have done it faster with my tools.... because I have a comfort level and expectation level from repetitive use.

    I consider myself a rather proficient operator of my tools and I think to an observer I could make the tools often times look like a hot knife through butter however on the other side I have stood out on a highway as IC watching one of my less experienced guys monkey with a procedure to the point that someone observing would say 'boy their tools suck, I'm not buying TNT" It wasn't the tool... it was the operators ability level.

    If your attempting a research project for what tools to buy, try them all. They all have goods and bads. I have a neighboring department who was totally torn between tools and couldn't reach a decision after several demos, that they finally chose based on brand X fit better in their compartments.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSHANK42 View Post
    Are you just trying to **** off the people you are asking for help?
    I really hope you are not as dense as you are making your self look. DCFD1415 is asking a perfectly normal, relavent question. If you don't like it, don't respond. If you have constructive input, lets here it.
    He may have not worded the question the way you would have, but... let it go.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCFD1415 View Post
    OK extrication gods....... Lets put it another way!
    You must be one of the most gullible people in the world if after reading that sentence you don't think he is trying to **** somebody off. Instead of coming on here and trying to bust balls why not take your own advise.
    IACOJ - Senior Jake

  5. #25
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    Default Take it outside!

    This is a posting that should be taken care of out in the parking lot.

    Why not schedule a tool evaluation for your department, and let the vendors go head to head with each other. Then do a little homework and ask the maintenance shops from different departments on tool reliability. I know there are some that show well in a demo, but fail miserably within the first 5 years.

    The rest of it is salesman blah, blah, blah.

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber sconfire's Avatar
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    All tools have their goos points and bad points. The operator makes the tool work. The tool will not do it by itself. Having a good tool helps.

    With the quality of tools out there today... it really comes down to how much you can buy a system for as well as how quick it can be fixed when it breaks. Thats the customer service part.

    If the customer service part sucks... then another tool could be bought. All the tools do the same thing. There may be some bells and whistles with the individual systems... but all in all I could do pretty much the same things with:

    Genesis
    TNT
    Hurst
    Holmatro
    Res-Q-tec
    Amkus
    Phoneix
    Champion
    ... and any others I missed.

    There are your names.
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    Captain Grant Mishoe, Curator of History
    North Charleston and American LaFrance Fire Museum
    "You'll never know where you're going until you remember where you came from"
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  7. #27
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    Well I believe this is what you were looking for:

    We recently evaluated Hurst, Holmatro and Amkus. All worked well, in the end we decided that by a fairly decent margin we felt:

    the Holmatro was the best match for us. The tools were relatively light, most liked the twist throttle and the new CORE hose was the real shining star (I know Hurst now has this too). The ability to change tools "on the fly" and the quick connections just make sense to us.

    The Amkus was a close second for weight and ergonomics, but I personally didn't like the way the hose was always in my way. It seems I was fighting to keep the hose out of the work all the time. And a few people weren't happy with the rotating handle that seemed to move around too easy.

    The Hurst worked well, but hadn't changed the design much so they're heavy and unwieldy in comparison. While I could specifically single out tools from each, it wouldn't be relevant as we'll be buying a set, not mixing tools.

    I am interested in trying the Genesis as well, before our final decision is made next month. We'll be outfitting a new rescue pumper with a full set of new tools.

    BTW: Of course the operator is the single greatest factor in the success or failure of the operation. But take the same operator and give him/her better tools? Wouldn't this be an improvement? And if the question is "market research" GOOD, please let the manufacturers know what works, what doesn't and what we'd like to see. It's fairly obvious Hurst didn't do that while they were the reigning champs of extrication tools.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-27-2007 at 09:17 AM.

  8. #28
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    most liked the twist throttle
    Ya know, if you are only working with the tool for a few minutes, the twist throttle is not bad...but it you spend a lot of time....

    This past weekend, we did a "fair" all day and I spent a good 2 hours worth of vehicle time. I can tell you flat out, I would pay to have that damn throttle replaced with a thumb toggle. My wrist and forearm are still a little sore. And 3 times, my hand got squeezed into the vehicle.

    I like the Holmatro tools. We use them and just purchased another. But I sure miss my Hurst thumb toggles.

    CORE technology - great stuff. Hurst version - not quite at the same level as the CORE....yet.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Ya know, if you are only working with the tool for a few minutes, the twist throttle is not bad...but it you spend a lot of time....
    Good point, our trial only allowed each operator minimal time with each tool. Though I'm not so concerned with the all day fair (doing one next week). I've done them in the past with our Hurst tools and had the sore thumb too. Kinda like snowmobiling all day.

  10. #30
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    Hi Guys

    I have been following this thread, and it seem to have come detracted from the original post, with some crash comments being made,

    The original question simply asked what tools people simply prefered against other makes.

    Yes the skill of the operator is of upmost importence, with no skill little will be achieved that is why we have training.

    However it cant be that hard to simply say what tools you prefer, i know there are tools that i personally like as against other makes, regardless of my skill level, a world class sports person will have the best skill but will still prefer a certain piece of equipment to carry out their sport.

    So why cant we just give a good answer without rude comments. To the simple question that DCFD1415 asked.

    And yes the tool is important, as we all know there is always the right tool for the right job, not all tools are rated for todays modern materials.

    When you go out, do you not ask what would be best to wear, shirt tie etc.

    You dont say it depends on the wearer do we, or how good they are at dressing!

    Sorry if some of these points upset, but it amazes me how simple questions turn into a hormonal battle as to who knows best, instead of answering the original question.

    stay safe

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnycutter View Post
    Hi Guys

    However it cant be that hard to simply say what tools you prefer, i know there are tools that i personally like as against other makes, regardless of my skill level, a world class sports person will have the best skill but will still prefer a certain piece of equipment to carry out their sport.

    So why cant we just give a good answer without rude comments. To the simple question that DCFD1415 asked.
    So what tools do you like, which don't you and why?

  12. #32
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    Talking

    He He good point, here is my answer.

    WE currently use Holmatro tools with the Core system hose, which is very good and quick to set up, with there only being 1 connection at each end of the hose, and there is no problem with the hose kinking every few mins. It also removes the risk of high pressure fluid injection from burst hose. Also tool operation is very simple and manoverable.

    However personnely i prefer the Webber tools, i found them to be very effective and with the duel speed option on the generators, giving 2 different tool speeds, i have found this to very beneficial. Where the Holmatro Dedicated cutter speed is slightly slower, which i know in the long run doesnt make to much difference, but still i personnely like the Webber tools.

    Both Makes are top of the range and tool operator skill is good, but a choice can still be made as to which any user may prefer.


  13. #33
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    Default New tools

    Hilti is coming out with a 36V Recip Saw this next summer. Last week during USAR training we used a 24V model to cut A,B, and C posts on both sides of a junk car and then just started playing. The battery lasted until the car had no top, or doors, and we were working on the frame. Needless to say it was a good tool. I also agree with others in the fact that the user's knowledge and experience will facilitate the safe and efficent removal of victims from any situation...but good tools help a lot.

  14. #34
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    jonnycutter - I'm curious as to where you live. You will not find Webber tools in the United States - Webber tools in the US are private labeled by American Rescue Technology as Genesis tools.

    Although I have not used them departments that have them seem to like them.

  15. #35
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    Thumbs up

    Hey Rescuemaster,

    I live in the UK, where a lot of Fire and Rescue services use Webber, a long with a lot of other makes.

  16. #36
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Adam,Before you buy, make sure to road test the Resqtek green line(EWO).We currently use Holmatro but I was favorably impressed when we tried the green line.I've got a dealer out of NY(good friend)if you need the number.I'm SURE you could talk him into taking a mini vaca in Me.You also ought to check out the lift bags. T.C.

  17. #37
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Bones,you got anybody else that can twist a wrist? Delegate,man,delegate! Haven't I taught you nuttin'? Hehe T.C.

  18. #38
    It looks hot in there PureAdrenalin's Avatar
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    1. It's all about the operator..and the brain inside their head. Any monkey can operate a spreader, cutters, or ram..but to know what you are doing with it is a much different.

    2. I've used many tools..the bulk being Hurst, I now have TNT. I much prefer the Hurst tools as I feel the balance is better with how I hold and operate. With the TNT they are just unbalanced.(for me)

    As for any extrication tool, they will all have good and bad points...
    'Adversus incendia excubias nocturnas vigilesque commentus est"

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  19. #39
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Bones,you got anybody else that can twist a wrist? Delegate,man,delegate! Haven't I taught you nuttin'? Hehe T.C.
    Was a demo day and my station for the event. You have taught me PLENTY!
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  20. #40

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    Anyone familiar with Champion Rescue Tools, and what is your opinion of quality and service.

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