1. #51
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    MD.
    Posts
    117

    Default

    ResQtec cutters will cut boron in real world situations, here is proof. I was the operator of the G6 cutter when I sheared the boron rod in this subaru impreza b post, and I can tell you after hearing that sound and watching the Genesis video there was only one or two cuts made by the Genesis that actually hit and sheared the boron rod, you cannot shear it without a loud surprise..
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by KAPNKRNCH; 01-30-2008 at 02:56 PM.

  2. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    249

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by NoFireGeeks View Post
    I'm not trying to push this brand down your throat. What works for us might not work for others. You have to do demo's and see when its time to buy. I have all of this "ability to cut" stuff stuck in my head because my committee just worked on buying new combi-tools and the rep was fillng us in on whats the current chit-chat in the rescue tool market. Sorry to have come off like I was pressing this down your
    throats
    It appears the "boron capable" cutter when it is cutting piece after piece of the tubing is cutting standard steel, not boron. In cutting fly end steel it just falls off versus actual boron that shatters or snaps off..... smoke and mirrors I say !!! Boron capable.... a pair of scisors is capable, anything is capable... can it do it for any duration and will things hold up.

    9 sets, impressed... thought more of sending you a condolence letter.... Just kidding.
    Last edited by Lieutenant387; 01-30-2008 at 05:53 PM.
    The evidence of God's presence far outweighs the
    proof of His absence.

  3. #53
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    191

    Default

    I agree with Bones 42,
    The Boron material in the Volvo XC90 B-pillar has a tensile strength of 203,000psi
    I was able to see the Holmatro 4050 NCT cutter cut that B-pillar in 2005 when the cutter was first introduced on the market.
    I think there is still pictures floating around somewhere on the forums of the 4050 NCT cutter cutting another XC90 B-pillar at a extrication challenge overseas?

    I also just read an advertisement that Champion Rescue Tools claims their new rescue tool (the beast 600) can generate 600,000 pounds of cutting force and a tool weight of only 46 pounds.
    I gotta see that one........

  4. #54
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    71

    Default

    Heres a link - I hope of a cutter cutting HSLA steel

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/...ctid1266105007

  5. #55
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Caldwell, NJ
    Posts
    56

    Default

    [QUOTE=firedog7;913848]
    The Boron material in the Volvo XC90 B-pillar has a tensile strength of 203,000psi
    QUOTE]

    I was curious about exactly what tensile strength is so I asked an engineer. This is the answer I received:

    "Tensile Strength is the force divided by the area needed to pull a piece apart (ie complete failure), also called ultimate strength. This is not the sheer strength of a material, although usually the higher the tensile the high the sheer. But I don't think there is a direct proportional coralation for all materials.
    Another term you may hear is Yield Strength, which is the force at which the material takes a perminent set and no longer springs back to its original shape after the load is released.

    But neither one of these terms will tell you, quantitatively, how much cutting force is need to sheer these materials. It probably has to due with surface hardness and through hardness as well as sheer strength."

    My interpretation of this is that if a metal has a tensile strength of 203,000 psi, it may, or may not require 203,000 psi to sheer. Does anyone know the relationship between tensile strength and sheer?

  6. #56
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Stoddard, WI USA
    Posts
    2

    Default Tool Time

    Genesis. We had Hurst then Amkus, 1 rig had Code 3 on it (weed eater moter). Still like the Air tools, and sawzall and high lift

  7. #57
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    191

    Cool

    prnancoz,
    This is a great question,
    And it is difficult to give a good simple answer,
    But here it goes,

    Shear Strength;
    Maximum shear stress that can be sustained by a material before rupture. The shear strength of a metal is the maximum load required to shear a specimen in such a manner that the resulting pieces are completely clear of each other (pull test) it is reported in psi based on the area of the sheared edge.

    Tensile strength;
    The tensile strength of a material is the maximum amount of tensile stress that it can be subjected to before failure. The definition of failure can vary according to material type and design, also reported in psi.

    Since the testing done to determine tensile strength of a metal is a pull test, (meaning the metal is actually pulled apart and the forces required to do so are recorded) not an actual cutting test, this is the best description I can give as it pertains to shear and tensile strength.
    The cutting test is more or less left to us in the field to sever a material with our cutters and then find out what that particular tensile strength is listed at according to the vehicle manufacturer.
    This may be why tool manufacturers describe their tools as being able to generate i.e. “200,000 psi of force”, because they cannot give an accurate figure of cutting strength required to “sever” the material.

    One other thing worthy of mention, vehicle manufacturers will order metal for vehicles according to specfic engineering requirements that have been determined in order to pass Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS 214 ,216
    This pertains to side impact and rollover standards that vehicles need to meet in order to be roadworthy)
    Every vehicle may have different strengths of metal throughout it’s structure depending on how it has been designed, this is why you may find a B-pillar harder to cut/spread than an A-pillar, roof rail, or rocker panel for example.
    So when a tool manufacturer claims their tool is”Boron Capable” this is a very broad statement because the material varies is strength so much.
    Some of the Boron strength ranges are anywhere from 80,000 to 250,000 psi that I know of.

    I hope this helps bit.
    Firedog7

  8. #58
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1

    Default tool and material

    Hey all ive just got a new grinder today its the machine marts own 9" grinder I also picked up some metal cutting discs aswell when I used it has loads of vibration im not used to larger grinders so should this be happening ?

  9. #59
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KAPNKRNCH View Post
    ResQtec cutters will cut boron in real world situations, here is proof. I was the operator of the G6 cutter when I sheared the boron rod in this subaru impreza b post, and I can tell you after hearing that sound and watching the Genesis video there was only one or two cuts made by the Genesis that actually hit and sheared the boron rod, you cannot shear it without a loud surprise..
    Got a new favorite to go with that:Milwakee 13 amp 'cip saw with Torch and Diamond blades. Get you in to just about anything. Boron? NO contest! T.C.

  10. #60
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    MD.
    Posts
    117

    Default

    101, were you using the 18 tpi or 14 tpi blades?

    For most cutting I prefer the progressive tooth design 8/12, but I dont think that would be the best choice for boron.

  11. #61
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KAPNKRNCH View Post
    101, were you using the 18 tpi or 14 tpi blades?

    For most cutting I prefer the progressive tooth design 8/12, but I dont think that would be the best choice for boron.
    We've had best luck with the 18's.Coarser is quicker but doesn't last as long. Ron says the Subaru B IS NOT Boron,Subaru says it is. Believe who you want but a sawsall WILL cut it. So will a FX4. BUT this stuff is just going to get tougher and tougher so get ready. T.C.

  12. #62
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
    Posts
    284

    Default

    We use TNT. Great tool and haven't had anything it couldn't cut.

    One thing that I've been told (and seen) is that the pump can make or break you. Make d@mn sure that when you're doing a demo that you have the same pump that you'll end up getting. There are a few companies/reps that will use a truck-mounted, PTO-driven pump that puts out way more volume/pressure than the actual pumps you end up buying. Makes the tools look real good during the demo, but then they're slower and won't cut as well after delivery.

    The only tool I personally don't like is Amkus. It cuts well, but the inverted (or backwards, whatever you want to call it) handle shortens the tool and throws off the center of balance and decreases my leverage. IMHO, it actually makes the tool more difficult to handle, not easier as they claim.

  13. #63
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simpleguy68 View Post
    ...There are a few companies/reps that will use a truck-mounted, PTO-driven pump that puts out way more volume/pressure than the actual pumps you end up buying. Makes the tools look real good during the demo, but then they're slower and won't cut as well after delivery...
    Care to name any company that actually does this?

    To me, is sounds more like the people seeing the demo are not understanding what they are looking at. Volume and pressure have 0 to do with being PTO driven or not.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #64
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    OK Bones,I'll bite. Try the Amkus tools off the Pickup mounted Ultimate system then try 'em off the Portable gas unit. Let me know what you find out. HINT..........BIG difference! T.C.

  15. #65
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
    Posts
    284

    Default

    Thanks TC, exactly who I was going to name...

    Being PTO-driven gives you more horsepower to work with, so you're able to put use a bigger pump. Hence the greater pressure/volume. That's why the PTO-driven units can run 4 or more tools at once and your "average" small-engine driven unit tops out at two.
    Last edited by simpleguy68; 06-14-2010 at 10:36 AM.

  16. #66
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    So you are going to tell me that a 10,000psi pump gives more pressure when it's PTO driven than when it's gas or electric driven? Really?

    If so, sounds like your gas/electric 10,000psi pump is NOT delivering it's 10,000psi.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #67
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Pressure? Probably not.VOLUME? Yah,I'll bet there is a difference. All I can suggest is YOU try it. I KNOW what I SAW. DRAMATIC difference in ability and cycle times.WITH the SAME equipment(tools)off the SAME truck.One line off the portable pump gas powered,one line off the Ultimate system.YES.....BIG DIFFERENCE! Doubt me all you want.Get the DEMO,THEN tell me.But you won't because YOU will see what I saw. T.C.

  18. #68
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,678

    Default

    101, obviously you were using 2 different pumps. And they were operating at different pressures and with different volumes. As you know, a "mini" pump at 10k psi and a small resevoir will NOT perform the same as a full sized pump at 10k psi with a large resevoir. Of course there is a volume difference which leads to better cycle times. No different than a 500gpm pump vs a 2000gpm pump. They can both put out 150psi, but they will both do so with a big difference in volume. No one will question that.

    but again, that is 2 different pumps.

    My statement was simply the fact that equal sized pumps will NOT perform differently just because they are PTO driven.

    Compare the same spec pumps, 1 being PTO and 1 being gas fed. You know you will get the same performace.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  19. #69
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Bones,Post #63. You ASKED and I answered. AND YES,this is how we "demoed" the Amkus tools. And NO,that Briggs or Honda IS NOT going to power the pump that Ford diesel does.I know it,you know it. You said "Show me someone who does this". I DID. For what it's worth,T.C.

  20. #70
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Southwestern, Pa
    Posts
    178

    Default

    The pumps should all be working at the same 10,500 lbs if they are operating properly. There is a big difference in pump volume capability from brand to brand and even model to model within the same brand. The ultimate system is probably the best and most capable system available, but very expensive. It is, as others have said, a volume issue (assuming the pump is working correctly). Look at the Genesis pump with the "Turbo" setting where both sides of the simo pump can be directed to one set of hoses and increase the flow. It is especially noticible with some of the newer heavy duty cutters with big pistons, like the Genesis, 231, 236, and All-9. The higher volume pumps fills the big cylinder faster. Kind of like a 1000 GPM pump filling a barrell slower than a 1500 GPM pump.
    Last edited by BB3939; 06-16-2010 at 10:47 AM.
    BB

  21. #71
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Cleveland, Texas
    Posts
    284

    Default

    That's exactly what TC and I were trying to say. The Ultimate System is amazing, but if you're shown the demo using that system and then buy the Honda-powered system, you'll be sorely disappointed.

    From what I gather, LifeForce Rescue (www.lifeforcerescue.com/pto.php) actually designed the Ultimate System. It's available on their rescue trucks or can be added to a pumper. It's compatible with all makes of tools.

    I've not seen the Genesis Turbo, but we have the TNT Accelerator, which sounds similar. HUGE difference when you flip the switch in terms of speed and power!!

  22. #72
    Forum Member
    Blulakr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Podunk
    Posts
    378

    Default

    This may seem strange to some but here are two of my favorite extrication tools,

    My LED helmet lamp. Most of our T\A's are at night in remote areas so having good lighting is essesntial...

    My gloves. Structure gloves just plain suck for anything but keeping your hands from burning. I keep a pair of mechanics wear gloves in my turnouts. They protect your hands well while allowing you to manipulate things..

    We also like the rescue 42 struts. We are using them here...

    Photo from rescue 42 website.. http://www.rescue42.com/fp_bluelake08.php

    Last edited by Blulakr; 07-01-2010 at 09:23 PM.

  23. #73
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Can't agree on the glove choice. Extrication gloves not allowed here. No one in this outfit has any problem doing EXTRICATION work in our standard issue fire glove. We've had several injuries with extrication gloves. T.C.

  24. #74
    Forum Member
    Blulakr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Podunk
    Posts
    378

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Can't agree on the glove choice. Extrication gloves not allowed here. No one in this outfit has any problem doing EXTRICATION work in our standard issue fire glove. We've had several injuries with extrication gloves. T.C.
    Maybe we need better structure fire gloves???

  25. #75
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Look, as far as I'm concerned there is no "best tool" each situation demands the use of a different tool, some tools thrive in some areas and fail in others. I may be wrong, I am just a Junior Firefighter but I do have extrication training. We use hurst and genesis tools in my department I believe, and they work excellent. I have to agree though that a well trained person can use a "bad" tool and recieve better results than an untrained person with a "good" tool. The man is JUST AS important as the tool. I have a pair of large Shelby Xtrication gloves, they arent pretty or fancy but they get the job done.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Riding ASsignments
    By cfd3800 in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 03-26-2009, 09:23 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register