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  1. #1
    Florida Boy!

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    Default Career and Voli????

    OK a question, Not to start anything I just dont get it???

    I work for combination dept. we have a few Voli's that work for Career IAFF Depts. other places. Isnt this a conflict of intrest? are those IAFF career-voli's costing spots of other FF's: Career and Voli???
    This is new to me my last dept didnt allow it!
    My immedate take is I dont spend enough time at home now, I couldnt imagine Volunteering somewhere else! and I run enough with one Dept!
    Last edited by wakehead; 07-06-2007 at 11:42 AM.
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    We had the same problem here for a while, most of it has ended over time most of it was the younger guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wakehead View Post
    OK a question, Not to start anything I just dont get it???

    I work for combination dept. we have a few Voli's that work for Career IAFF Depts. other places. Isnt this a conflict of intrest? are those IAFF career-voli's costing spots of other FF??? SCABS?????
    This is new to me my last dept didnt allow it!
    My immedate take is I dont spend enough time at home now, I couldnt imagine Volunteering somewhere else! and I run enough with one Dept!
    Is your department going to hire a whole slew of guys if all the volly's quit? I highly doubt it, and in that case they don't cost anyone anything. And with 4% unemployment in this great Nation of ours, while it might cost someone their childhood dream job, it is not keeping them unemployed. In fact it is probably forcing some guys that would be marginal firefighters at best to earn a lot more money at some other job where folks lives don't depend on them.

    We have guys that live in this area and are career elsewhere volunteer around here as emt's or just additional staffing, while a lot of the career guys
    at the local department who live out in the boonies are volunteers at home. In fact we have one local chief who is a volly at home while one of his men is his chief at home. They are not taking jobs from anyone, they are however offering their expertise to thier community when they can spare the time. Sort of like a doctor who offers free physicals and sideline care to the local H.S. teams. it is offering what you can to your community.

    Now if your town/city/county council has said that they won't hire any full time firefighters as long as they have dependable volunteers, than you have a point up to a point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    More common than the IAFF would like for sure. Thier stance is clear, NO two-hatting.

    With my non-union background, I tend to see the volley side first, where the gain of a few casual career FF's to a small town dept is huge, and the risk to the Union is minimal. In most cases up here, I don't see the unions create a stink.

    However, when a town is truly large and busy enough to need more career staff, and is just being cheap (i.e. not broke), the union should step in and push the issue.

    At the end of the day, our job is to save lives, reduce suffering, save property. We have to be careful to manage the business side along with the PUBLIC good. A broke city council pays no wages.
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    I just have one word:
    SCAB!!!!
    IAFF member, Love this job! Remember the oath!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    I just have one word:
    SCAB!!!!

    What an insiteful, useful, intelligent, well thought out response.


    Okay now for the serious part of my response.

    If you are a career firefighter volunteering does not make you evil.

    If the department you volunteer to has career members you absolutely should NOT volunteer there. You are hurting Union Brothers in that case.

    Getting my PPE now because I know the rabid few will attemp to burn me to the ground.

    FyredUp

  7. #7
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    Wink

    I volunteer at a combo department, and even with volunteers we got two new paid positions this coming fiscal year. We also get along with the career guys, who outnumber us almost 4 to 1. Great people, great department.

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    IAFF member here.

    I would not volunteer.

    The only reason is I want to spend my free time with my wife and kids.

    I was a volunteer, our Chief and ***. Chief were both IAFF members.

    They were not taking away a full time job because in our district there was not enough money to support paid positions.

    Career and volunteer both have there place!

    I would love to see everyone get paid, but it just isn't possible.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    I just have one word:
    SCAB!!!!
    For someone that is a union member, you need to learn your terminology.

    "A strikebreaker, or scab, is a person who works despite ongoing strike action."

    I have not heard anything in this thread about anyone going on strike. So leave your "scabs" at home. (Unless you fell down and have a boo-boo).
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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    First of all remember the oath you took when you joined this union.
    Second according to Merriam-Webster a scab is:

    1. Scabies of domestic animals.
    2. a crust of hardened blood and serum over a wound.
    3.a. a contemptible person.
    3.b.1. a worker who refuses to join a labor union
    3.b.2. a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended
    3.b.3. a worker who excepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike
    3.b.4. one who works for less than union wages or nonunion terms
    4. any various bacterial or fungus diseases of plants characterized by crustaceous spots
    Last edited by KeithA8; 07-12-2007 at 11:22 AM.
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    Fyredup you well know my answer - we have gone round and round about this many times before.
    IAFF member, Love this job! Remember the oath!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    If you are a career firefighter volunteering does not make you evil.
    True enough. Evil is volunteering and belonging to the IAFF. You can't do both without a conflict of interest.

    If volunteering is all that important to you (That's the generic "you" -- not anyone in partcular.) then you shouldn't also belong to the IAFF.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Wassup, Keet!

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    First of all remember the oath you took when you joined this union.
    FWIW, I don't actually know of any Locals who swear in new members. Maybe they do at your current department? If you were sworn in when you were here, I'd be very surprised -- I know I wasn't.

    For that matter, I frequently see people here saying, "Remember your Oath," as if every firefighter everywhere was sworn in when, in fact, that practice in not universal.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    DeputyMarshal
    You're right I wasn't sworn in at your dept. My understanding is most if not all other locals do swear in there members and if they don't then they most definetly get the union international bylaws. It's no secret to all union members that this is clearly wrong. Some locals chose not to enforce it for there own reasons.

    This is not a shot at volunteers who are not affiliated to the IAFF. I have no problem with volunteers as an organization and I actualy commend their volunteer spirit. They make up the vast majority of the fire service as a whole. They provide a fire service where career staff is just not fiscaly responsible. Most career firefighters came from a volunteer organization - myself included. Most of you reading this have heard me explain this time and time again.
    IAFF member, Love this job! Remember the oath!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    DeputyMarshal
    You're right I wasn't sworn in at your dept. My understanding is most if not all other locals do swear in there members and if they don't then they most definetly get the union international bylaws. It's no secret to all union members that this is clearly wrong. Some locals chose not to enforce it for there own reasons.

    This is not a shot at volunteers who are not affiliated to the IAFF. I have no problem with volunteers as an organization and I actualy commend their volunteer spirit. They make up the vast majority of the fire service as a whole. They provide a fire service where career staff is just not fiscaly responsible. Most career firefighters came from a volunteer organization - myself included. Most of you reading this have heard me explain this time and time again.
    See here is where the arguement loses steam. Why should an IAFF Brother(or sister) who is theoretically a well trained and skilled firefighter avoid volunteering those skills in his home community if it is in that rural area where a career staff, partial or fully, can not be justified? I know of plenty of union plumbers, electricians, carpenter, steamfitters, and other tradesmen who's unions encourage them to volunteer their time and expertise to community projects like schools where capital improvement funds might be low. How is offering that service to the community not scab work while serving as a volunteer firefighter is scab work? If a community can afford 24/7 minimum staffing and a Brother comes in to provide free labor in the rear bucket for a day, that I would say is being a scab, no doubt. But offering your expertise and skills to your home community should be commended, not shuned.

    We know the ratio of vollies to career, but anyone know the percentage of carerr urban firefighters that live in a rural community? I think that that would shine a different light on this debate/issue.


    (I say theoretically cause we all know there is that bottom 5% that must survive in the fire service on personality and not skill )
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  16. #16
    the 4-1-4
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    This is always such a useless debate, and only turns into a ****ing match. Until my union decides to take a more aggressive and consistant posture on all threats to our jobs, the IAFF will continue to have no credibility on this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    See here is where the arguement loses steam.
    Not in the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    Why should an IAFF Brother(or sister) who is theoretically a well trained and skilled firefighter avoid volunteering those skills in his home community if it is in that rural area where a career staff, partial or fully, can not be justified?
    Because it's a violation of the IAFF By-Laws. If a career firefighter is so convinced that s/he is needed elsewhere as a volunteer s/he is welcome to do so as long as s/he isn't also a member of the IAFF. It's quite simple: you're not allowed to be both a volunteer firefighter and a member of the IAFF -- it's a clear conflict of interest. In that case you need to choose which organization it's more important for you to belong to because you can't belong to both.

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    We know the ratio of vollies to career, but anyone know the percentage of carerr urban firefighters that live in a rural community? I think that that would shine a different light on this debate/issue.
    I don't know the numbers but I work as a career firefighter in one small city and live in a small rural town. I happen to be a member of the IAFF. As long as I remain a member, I won't volunteer in any town -- even my own. I do other things to support my community but I'm not about to ignore the interests of the union that so strongly supports my livlihood.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Not in the least.



    Because it's a violation of the IAFF By-Laws. If a career firefighter is so convinced that s/he is needed elsewhere as a volunteer s/he is welcome to do so as long as s/he isn't also a member of the IAFF. It's quite simple: you're not allowed to be both a volunteer firefighter and a member of the IAFF -- it's a clear conflict of interest. In that case you need to choose which organization it's more important for you to belong to because you can't belong to both.
    You have not shown how it is a conflict of interest, you have only shown how it might be a conflict of the by-laws. There is a big difference. The by-laws do not HAVE to be ethically and logically justified, but they should be to have a true moral ground to stand on. If volunteering your skills does not have an impact on a town hiring firefighters, how is it in any way a conflict of interest?


    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    I don't know the numbers but I work as a career firefighter in one small city and live in a small rural town. I happen to be a member of the IAFF. As long as I remain a member, I won't volunteer in any town -- even my own. I do other things to support my community but I'm not about to ignore the interests of the union that so strongly supports my livlihood.
    Does your rural town have career firefighters? If not could they afford to, or could the call volume justify a full 24/7 department? If the answer is no, how would volunteering your skills and knowledge be in any way conflicting with the union's interests?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  19. #19
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    You have not shown how it is a conflict of interest; you have only shown how it might be a conflict of the by-laws. There is a big difference.

    You’re correct; it is not a conflict of interest. For whatever reason, the IAFF has chosen to name all volunteer departments as rival organizations, and all aren’t. There are cases, and we’ll leave out the name and location, but there are places in which volunteers are in direct competition for, and use in place of IAFF jobs.

    As I have said repeatedly, the IAFF has no credibility on this issue.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    You have not shown how it is a conflict of interest, you have only shown how it might be a conflict of the by-laws. There is a big difference.
    No, actually, it isn't in the least. Virtually by definition, it's a conflict of interest to agree to follow an organization's by-laws on one hand and then go out and disregard them on the other. The IAFF is an organization devoted to the advancement of career firefighters; a condition of membership is following the By-Laws. That particular By-Law exists because there are fundamental conflicts between firefighting-as-a-career and being a volunteer firefighter.

    Career and volunteer firefighters have some common goals but they also indisputably have many goals that are very different. What's so hard to understand about that? The IAFF exists to serve career firefighters so it's no surprise that it would object to having its members belong to other rival organizations that are inherently adversarial to career firefighters.

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    The by-laws do not HAVE to be ethically and logically justified, but they should be to have a true moral ground to stand on.
    Should they? Probably. Is it an imperative? No, it's not. If anyone wants to change the rules then they need to do it from inside the IAFF as a member in good standing. Of course, a member who is already in violation of the By-Laws isn't a member in good standing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    If volunteering your skills does not have an impact on a town hiring firefighters, how is it in any way a conflict of interest?
    Not to be crude but that's really a discussion to have within the IAFF since it's ultimately nobody else's business.

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    Does your rural town have career firefighters?....
    Nope. Not in my district but some adjoining districts and towns have them and I've been lobbying heavily to put a full-time staffing plan in place in my district. We're way overdue to provide at least minimal daytime station manning. (I happen serve on the long range planning committee as a taxpayer -- not as a firefighter.)

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace View Post
    ....how would volunteering your skills and knowledge be in any way conflicting with the union's interests?
    First, it would demonstrate that I had no regard for the unions By-Laws.

    Second, it would negatively influence the much needed decision to stop relying on volunteers 24/7/365.

    Third, it would negatively influence other career firefighters (both union and non-union) who routinely respond mutual aid into our district and whose management routinely uses our volunteers to "supplement" their response instead of providing them with the reliable manpower resources that they deserve.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  21. #21
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    Alright all you union toughs, when you get FDNY, or insert any large east coast departmnet, and the hundreds of guys there that vollie-even on IAFF represented combo departments-to change, then you can start the witch hunt. Even the International won't call them out. Because all things aside, a union is a business, and when you start looking at the size of some of these departments, alienating, what 20,000 members , and losing their dues isn't an option. Until that gets straightened out, coming on here and threating some guy that vollies on a small, rural department is a joke.
    Like I said, we have entire counties with less that 5000 people, if you think a guy working as a vollie there is keeping a union brother off the job, you are high.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 07-12-2007 at 05:57 PM.
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  22. #22
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    The international has always left the disipline up to the local and has never forced anyone on an international level to stop. FDNY choses not to fight it because it simply isn't worth it in their city. The cost of the fight would not justify the gain.

    DeputyMarshal covers a lot of good points but lets put all that aside and look at presumptive health care. Volunteering throws it all out the window no matter if your village has a population of 2 or 200,000. Protect the bennifits your union has fought long and hard for, if not for you, than your family. And you running with the vollies threatens it and THAT is a conflict of interest, not only for you selfish ones, but everyone else in your local!

    If your village will burn down without you than they have bigger problems. Help them train, help out at fund raisers, do administrative work, fire prevention just don't run the calls. Don't you get enough of it at work anyway? Spend time with your family, your kids will love you for it.
    IAFF member, Love this job! Remember the oath!

  23. #23
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    Thumbs down Good Ol 2 Hatter

    This dam 2 hatter issue needs to stop. And what I mean by stop is that the IAFF get rid of it.

    I can see if a career firefighter goes to volunteer in a city where the city has the potential of becoming career. Yes you may be preventing Jobs.. Im career and love when the die hard union boys tell us we cant be paramedics on the side.. Hell if thats the case then you cant be a plumber gasfitter etc because were taking jobs from that union.

    If a guy wants to volunteer on his days off then so be it.
    My depart has automatic call back. Where composite. Is that a 2 hatter? Its not time and half..

    How many of you hard core union heads were Volunteer?
    Let the guys make the choice. If they get hurt as a volunteer then thats something they will have to deal with.

    Im proud as hell to be a IAFF member, but this 2 hatter issue is brutal. I bet if a survey was done 65% of the IAFF is 2 hatting.

    Look at the FDNY or Chicago alot of the time I see a LODD from these departments it states they were also volunteers.
    The biggest IAFF locals?
    So quit bashing the guys who 2 hat and move on to other Association issues that are far more important.

    Just my opinoin- Dont tell me the IAFF wont let me have one

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAFA62 View Post
    My depart has automatic call back. Where composite. Is that a 2 hatter? Its not time and half..
    Sucks to be in Canada, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAFA62 View Post
    How many of you hard core union heads were Volunteer?
    I wouldn't consider myself "hardcore" union but I do believe that IAFF members shouldn't belong to competing organizations. I started as a volunteer and I have nothing against volunteers.

    [QUOTE=JAFA62;836977]Let the guys make the choice.[quote]

    They have a choice now: belong to the IAFF or the volunteer organiztion but not both. The IAFF isn't saying you can't volunteer; just that you can't volunteer and still be a member of the IAFF.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Deputy,
    Im well aware of the IAFF stance. I just know they are now trying to push the issue with medics. I believe this issue is overrated. A what if? If you could volunteer would you?
    I'm glad to see that you support the IAFF 100% thats why the IAFF is so strong we support each other. Except for this issue as it divides stations, associations, members etc.
    And what I mean about hardcore>Hows this for size. I was in New York state and talking to some IAFF members and one guy stated he put a memo out to his Local that they are no longer to shop at Wal-Mart because they are union breakers lol. Yah ok.
    Fact is some volunteer Co's would be useless without the assistance of 2 Hatters.

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