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  1. #1
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    Default Vent Enter Search (VES) SOP's

    I am interested in if anyones department has a SOP or SOG on vent, enter, search. We are writing and SOP and want ideas. Thanks in advance for your help.


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    Captain Mike Dugan with the FDNY is a frequent instructor on this exact subject. In fact he lectured a "VES" webcast a little while back on this exact website. Try contacting him, im sure he would be happy to lead you in the right direction.

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    Excellant article. I am surprised though, that these basic tactics could, at all, be forgien to some departments. Its actually scary that departments would chose not to employ VES, for whatever excuse they have!

    The article also does a good job of explaining (better than I ever could) tactics that have been argued on these forums over the years, such as searching opposite the line and the need for venting of peaked roof PD's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Excellant article. I am surprised though, that these basic tactics could, at all, be forgien to some departments. Its actually scary that departments would chose not to employ VES, for whatever excuse they have!

    The article also does a good job of explaining (better than I ever could) tactics that have been argued on these forums over the years, such as searching opposite the line and the need for venting of peaked roof PD's.
    There are some in this dept who would care to write one up for saying those three little letters. It is only one or two, but it is not embraced here.

    And I would recommend practicing this tactic in burn buildings prior to actually doing it. It is a skill that requires constant training.
    Co 11
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    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Great...I'm staying in Virginia Beach with my wife and kids for one night in August!

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    Matty,

    Doesn't Ladders 4 cover VES at PD's?

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    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
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    I agree its a well written article Matty that describes the advantages of VES well. Whilst I am a strong believer in VES principles the article doesn't explore some of the hazards involved. For example, would you want to VES a window that is very hot, stained and crazing prior to getting water on the fire? There is also the point that some fire departments prefer the PPV approach and I think we have discussed the conflict between VES and PPA tactics before.

    The author is right though, many lives can be saved by a prompt VES action that is risk assessed and effected by a well trained crew.

    Yes 'Ladders 4' is referenced in the article in relation to VES & PDs
    Last edited by PaulGRIMWOOD; 07-08-2007 at 11:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Great...I'm staying in Virginia Beach with my wife and kids for one night in August!
    Shoot me a PM of where an when. I'd rather you stay in a decent hotel and not one of the "trouble" spots on Atlantic Ave.
    Co 11
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    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 37truck View Post
    Matty,

    Doesn't Ladders 4 cover VES at PD's?
    Yes it is. It isnt a tactic just for PD's though. It is also discussed in Ladders 3 (tenements) and in just about every other book for tactics in the various types of buildings we encounter.

    Paul....it is a tactic that calls for judgement. There is alot to consider. Will taking window expose occupants above? Will it draw fire to the room before the search can be accomplished? Will it endanger interior searches already being conducted? Will it have adverse effects on fire conditions?

    Also to be considered: Is the room to be searched able to be "gotten to" by interior members? If so try to reach a room that interior crews cant get to (blocked by fire) which,by the way, is the whole reason this is being done opposite the fire; which room needs to be searched 1st? probably the one closest to the fire (less time, occupants in most danger)

    It is a tactic that,like any other, requiers training, forthough, confidence, and ability. This is one reason that knowing the typical building style,layout etc.... in your response area is critical. It will help make these decisions quickly and accuratly. It can be a dangerous assignment, but critical to trapped occupants.

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    Paul, that's a good point. Or procedures are to VES those windows that indicate the probability of a viable victim. Usually that indicator being curtains or shades intact on the window.
    As far as PPV, training is working to get that as a trained skill set where all companies are on the same page. Especially when it comes to all the balloon crap we have. It works well for room and contents, but once the walls or ceiling is breeched, its going non stop to the attic. Adding a fan could be disasterous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGRIMWOOD View Post
    Paul... thanks for the link!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Paul, that's a good point. Or procedures are to VES those windows that indicate the probability of a viable victim. Usually that indicator being curtains or shades intact on the window.
    As far as PPV, training is working to get that as a trained skill set where all companies are on the same page. Especially when it comes to all the balloon crap we have. It works well for room and contents, but once the walls or ceiling is breeched, its going non stop to the attic. Adding a fan could be disasterous.

    Im not trying to stir things up, but what does "curtains or shades intact" have anything to do with a viable victim being present?

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    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    Paul, that's a good point. Or procedures are to VES those windows that indicate the probability of a viable victim. Usually that indicator being curtains or shades intact on the window.
    As far as PPV, training is working to get that as a trained skill set where all companies are on the same page. Especially when it comes to all the balloon crap we have. It works well for room and contents, but once the walls or ceiling is breeched, its going non stop to the attic. Adding a fan could be disasterous.
    SPFDRum .... That's interesting! Your training Dept are looking at PPV and you seem to infer that this might be for pre-attack in some situations. Yet your departmental policy is to implement VES. Is there likely to be a conflict in tactical approaches here? Does anyone else have this conflict? Maybe there isn't a conflict in your minds but I see it.

    Here is a great link to a previous debate we had some years back with some great posts from FDNY .... as carried on in this thread by Matty.

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...t=VES+SCENARIO

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    I don't know what blinds or shades would signify. Maybe at night that someone is in that room. That's my best guess.

    But I know my department always says at training to think of the time of day, and where people are most likely to be. If we pull up to a house fire at 3 in the morning, you betcha we'll be searching the rooms fast. If it's the middle of the day, living room and kitchen are two areas where victims are likely to be.

    Also they stress to see if there's any signs of people being home at the time. Since our community has a small year-round population, but explodes during the summer, many houses are vacant during the winter. So one of the things we're looking at when we pull up is cars in the drive way, toys out on the lawn, and things to that nature. Maybe that's something like where the blinds/shades are coming from?

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