Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 11 1234 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 213
  1. #1
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Default Too many LODDs Keep Occurring for the Same Reasons

    The fire service must be willing to look at itself and resolve to make needed changes. We can't only deal with those LODD recommendations that firefighters are comfortable with addressing and ignore those that may not show us in a good light. Too many LODDs keep occurring for the same reasons, time and time again. Until all departments move deliberately to make substantive changes in how they approach emergency operations, we will continue attending far too many firefighter funerals.........


  2. #2
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,783

    Default

    Too many LODDs keep occurring for the same reasons, time and time again.

    You mean deaths from aggressive interior searches and firefighting?

  3. #3
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Yes! There is a clear need for some to follow national standards! Despite what is being said elsewhere on this forum!

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Lakes Region of NH
    Posts
    344

    Default How about addressing the real killers?

    Like heart attacks (and other medical issues) and vehiclular accidents. Fire ground and training deaths are obviously a very serious issue but if we would take care of ourselves physically and stop driving like maniacs alot fewer firefighters would die every year.

    The last three LODD here in NH: heart attack, vehicular accident and drowning. Hm. I don't pretened to know what your statistics are in England but I know here Stateside we have a lot more deaths that are non-fire operations related then firefighting ones.

    2006 info
    Cause of Fatal Injury:

    16 Caught/Trapped 15.0%
    1 Contact with 0.94%
    54 Stress/Overexertion 50.9%
    1 Exposure 0.94%
    5 Collapse 4.71%
    6 Struck by 5.66%
    19 Vehicle Collision 17.9%
    3 Lost 2.83%
    1 Other 0.94%

    Nature of Fatal Injury:

    12 Asphyxiation 11.3%
    5 Crushed 4.71%
    8 Burns 7.54%
    4 CVA 3.77%
    24 Trauma 22.6%
    1 Electrocution 0.94%
    50 Heart Attack 47.1%
    2 Other 1.88%

    Type of Duty:

    15 Responding 25.4%
    8 Training 13.5%
    18 On-Scene Fire 30.5%
    3 On-Scene Non-Fire 5.08%
    6 After 10.1%
    8 Other On-Duty 13.5%
    1 Returning 1.69%

    Percent of Fatalities Related to Emergency Duty: 66.1%
    Number of firefighter fatalities associated with suspicious/arson fires: 1

    Type of Incident:

    1 Wildland 1.69%
    28 Structure Fire 47.4%
    4 MVA 6.77%
    2 Hazmat 3.38%
    2 EMS 3.38%
    21 Not Incident Related 35.5%
    1 Unknown 1.69%

    I got my stats from:
    http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/fireservice/.../ff_stats.shtm
    Last edited by FiRsqDvr45; 07-13-2007 at 04:23 PM.
    Proud to be an American, Union Firefighter!

  5. #5
    Forum Member FDAIC485's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeast aka Dixie
    Posts
    653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    You mean deaths from aggressive interior searches and firefighting?
    Been there, done that....starting to question whether this is the best answer in certain building construction.

    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Houston, Local341
    Posts
    250

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGRIMWOOD View Post
    Yes! There is a clear need for some to follow national standards! Despite what is being said elsewhere on this forum!

    OMG IF I HEAR THE F@#$ING NATIONAL STANDARD SPEACH ONE MORE FRIGGIN TIME.....GROW THE HELL UP PEOPLE

    First off what works in New York will not work in Houston, what works in Houston will not work in Denver.... and so on and so on. So it's impossible to have national standards.

    And 2nd off. The only way and i mean the only way for us to stop LODD is for every firefighter in the country to not respond to fires. Yes we can continue to try and lower the numbers but they will always happen as along as we get on the trucks and respond.

    And last but not least if i ever die in a fire please do not disrespect me or my family by saying i never should have been in there or oh why oh why did it happen...my 16-year old daughter will tell you why I was in there..Because he loved his job and he did it and saving lives and property is what he loved to do. And if a 16-year girl can understand that why are there so many knuckles heads on here that don't. Oh and just incase someone on here says i don't know what it's like to loss some one. My friend and captain was killed 2-19-05 in a house fire so I do know.

    Sorry just had a rant there...my bad.
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    492

    Default

    Can you be a little more to the point?

    Are you saying that we (fire service) are too aggressive, not ventalating enough/too much? Following IC procedures properly? Where are the errors being made? Grant you, there are sometimes where mistakes are made and other times when ***** happens. I read and learn from every report and Pray to GOD that myself or one of my other officers has his A game going on every call.

    Stay safe and learn from all reported incidents, not just LODD's.

    T.J.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    492

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hfd838 View Post
    OMG IF I HEAR THE F@#$ING NATIONAL STANDARD SPEACH ONE MORE FRIGGIN TIME.....GROW THE HELL UP PEOPLE

    First off what works in New York will not work in Houston, what works in Houston will not work in Denver.... and so on and so on. So it's impossible to have national standards.

    And 2nd off. The only way and i mean the only way for us to stop LODD is for every firefighter in the country to not respond to fires. Yes we can continue to try and lower the numbers but they will always happen as along as we get on the trucks and respond.

    And last but not least if i ever die in a fire please do not disrespect me or my family by saying i never should have been in there or oh why oh why did it happen...my 16-year old daughter will tell you why I was in there..Because he loved his job and he did it and saving lives and property is what he loved to do. And if a 16-year girl can understand that why are there so many knuckles heads on here that don't. Oh and just incase someone on here says i don't know what it's like to loss some one. My friend and captain was killed 2-19-05 in a house fire so I do know.

    Sorry just had a rant there...my bad.

    Rant on Brother!!!

    T.J.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Lakes Region of NH
    Posts
    344

    Default Dictating US policy from afar...

    Hm....someone else jumping on the "National Standard" bandwagon from someone not even in this "NATION". Odd.

    At least in the US we gave up using booster reels as attack lines years ago...

    HFD speaks for many of us. Sometimes rants can be dead on...
    Proud to be an American, Union Firefighter!

  10. #10
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,783

    Default

    Yes! There is a clear need for some to follow national standards! Despite what is being said elsewhere on this forum!

    And what Ďnational standardí is it that youíre talking about? Is it the national standard that is being used to cut staffing in my department; I sure am glad my city is following that one. I know that will do wonders to prevent line-of-duty-deaths. Is it some standard from your side of the ocean?
    Or, are you just advocating that we stop searching for victims in buildings that are on fire, or should we start sticking handlines into windows and burn them before we pull them out?
    Iím confused here, and need more of what it is youíre trying to mandate here. I have and always will advocate aggressive interior oriented firefighting, it is by far the safest, most logical, and provides for the greatest preservation of life and property.

    If youíre looking to open this debate regarding firefighter health and fitness, or even seatbelts, then letís talk. I am a huge supporter of physical fitness and am constantly working within my local to not only adopt, but enforce some kind of physical fitness policy. I am even on board with our seatbelt policy, even though I will never sign the pledge. Deaths related to these issues can be improved. To what extent, I donít know. People will always have hidden heart disease, and accidents will still happen as long as we respond, but we can improve; no doubt about it.

    We have to keep going inside of structures in order to save lives. As long as we do that, really bad things can and will happen. Believe it or not, there are some dangerous aspects to this job.
    If your trying to tell us to stop interior firefighting, this conversation is done.
    Last edited by jasper45; 07-13-2007 at 04:54 PM.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber fireslayer1237's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Wa
    Posts
    204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hfd838 View Post
    OMG IF I HEAR THE F@#$ING NATIONAL STANDARD SPEACH ONE MORE FRIGGIN TIME.....GROW THE HELL UP PEOPLE

    First off what works in New York will not work in Houston, what works in Houston will not work in Denver.... and so on and so on. So it's impossible to have national standards.

    And 2nd off. The only way and i mean the only way for us to stop LODD is for every firefighter in the country to not respond to fires. Yes we can continue to try and lower the numbers but they will always happen as along as we get on the trucks and respond.

    And last but not least if i ever die in a fire please do not disrespect me or my family by saying i never should have been in there or oh why oh why did it happen...my 16-year old daughter will tell you why I was in there..Because he loved his job and he did it and saving lives and property is what he loved to do. And if a 16-year girl can understand that why are there so many knuckles heads on here that don't. Oh and just incase someone on here says i don't know what it's like to loss some one. My friend and captain was killed 2-19-05 in a house fire so I do know.

    Sorry just had a rant there...my bad.

    well said brother. Sorry for your lost
    FOOLS
    RFB-KTF-DTRT

  12. #12
    Forum Member FDAIC485's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeast aka Dixie
    Posts
    653

    Default

    There's got to be some big series of magnet that draws every thread to either the Vollie vs Paid argument or "Me Firefighter, Me go into fire regardless of the obvious threat to my well being" train of thought. I think FH.com should tank the whole service offered to the Firefighting community. Because, you can't even discuss anything without someone getting ****ed off.

    There, that's my rant! Now I'm off to do at least 30 minutes of Cardio so I don't die at my next job due to overexertion.
    Last edited by FDAIC485; 07-13-2007 at 05:07 PM.
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber fireslayer1237's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Wa
    Posts
    204

    Default

    Time to pull up a seat this is going to be interesting.

    pull your head out of your ***** and realize that there is a difference in have a set of brass balls and being aggresive and taking unnicissary risks. No one here has said to take a risk that isn't beneficial.
    Last edited by fireslayer1237; 07-13-2007 at 05:13 PM.
    FOOLS
    RFB-KTF-DTRT

  14. #14
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Chief Thomas added to the controversy when he told the Post and Courier newspaper that he wasn't concerned about national standards.
    "I don't care how it is anyplace else," he said, adding, "Our firefighting techniques are not going to change in the city of Charleston Fire Department."
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19617693/

    'The fire service must be willing to look at itself and resolve to make needed changes. We can't only deal with those LODD recommendations that firefighters are comfortable with addressing and ignore those that may not show us in a good light. Too many LODDs keep occurring for the same reasons, time and time again. Until all departments move deliberately to make substantive changes in how they approach emergency operations, we will continue attending far too many firefighter funerals.........'
    http://firechief.com/management/fire...uston_problem/

    Chris Connealy is the fire chief of the Houston Fire Department ....

    Just two differing views from two respected Chiefs who reacted to losing multiples of firefighters this decade. I find these contrasting views interesting in the light of your debates lately!

    Houston looked to 1710 amongst other standards to try and prevent future LODDs. I'm not getting into a political or childish debate but there are some serious issues about to hit the tabloids!

  15. #15
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ...A great place, on a Great Lake
    Posts
    2,783

    Default

    Vollie vs Paid argument or "Me Firefighter, Me go into fire regardless of the obvious threat to my well being" train of thought.

    I havenít seen any post bringing up this debate, except for yours, and I donít see any post that advocates your other, for lack of a better word, point.
    I am not going to entertain any opinion that we should change our overall posture of being aggressive, interior oriented firefighters.
    It takes education, experience, and competency in order to fight fires this way. If that is too much for you, maybe itís time to work somewhere else. Aggressive interior firefighting means you know your construction, you are familiar with what different fire conditions look like, it means you read smoke and buildings, it means that you understand ventilation and know how to do it effectively, it means your forward thinking with your RIT, it means that every member on your department is on the same page.

    If you can look at yourself in the mirror, with an attitude that says we are more important than our citizens we protect, I will have to admit that I will be very disappointed to hear that. Every citizens life is as important as mine or my family's. I also believe in approaching every potential victim as being a member of my family. Weíre paid to provide a service, and that service puts us at extreme risk at times.
    Last edited by jasper45; 07-13-2007 at 05:31 PM.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Houston, Local341
    Posts
    250

    Default

    Hey Paulgrimwood


    I am all for a great debit and by all means bring it. Because the truth be told we are not perfect and all need to train and rethink our tactics on a daily base BUT if you think Plagiarism is the way to go yes Plagiarism you started your thread like it was your writing and then to come find out it was a quote from one of the all time greatest frauds in the history of the fire service. It just goes to show how much you really know if you think Chris Connelly was a respected Chief. My advice don't ever come to Houston and say that out loud. If you are going to base all you facts off of Houstonís town idiot then you need help. Connelly never fought a fire his whole career yes he is smart. a great test taker and give him book he looks good, but in a fire, on the fire ground or behind the chiefs desk he was an incompetent, uneducated, dangerous chief and i am one that is glad that he was run off from Houston never to return.....oh Iím sorry i didn't mean to crush you idol. So what is it did you want to debate again.
    Last edited by hfd838; 07-13-2007 at 05:34 PM.
    "DON'T GO IN THERE!!! DON'T YOU KNOW THERE IS A FIRE IN THERE!!!!"

    "YOU'RE KILLING ME ROOK"

  17. #17
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    2,638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulGRIMWOOD View Post
    Too many LODDs keep occurring for the same reasons, time and time again.
    Of course they do. One need look no further than the common threads on this forum where anyone questioning whether a LODD could have been avoided is automatically labeled a "mutt" or somesuch other childish name.

    As long as the fire service still has a vocal minority determined not to learn from others' experience we'll keep having LODDs that could -- strike that -- should have been avoided.

    Firefighting is a dangerous business: Partly because of the nature of the beast and partly because we're too damn stubborn to admit that "tradition" isn't always right.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  18. #18
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    9,872

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    I havenít seen any post bringing up this debate, except for yours, and I donít see any post that advocates your other, for lack of a better word, point.
    I am not going to entertain any opinion that we should change our overall posture of being aggressive, interior oriented firefighters.
    It takes education, experience, and competency in order to fight fires this way. If that is too much for you, maybe itís time to work somewhere else. Aggressive interior firefighting means you know your construction, you are familiar with what different fire conditions look like, it means you read smoke and buildings, it means that you understand ventilation and know how to do it effectively, it means your forward thinking with your RIT, it means that every member on your department is on the same page.

    If you can look at yourself in the mirror, with an attitude that says we are more important than our citizens we protect, I will have to admit that I will be very disappointed to hear that. Every citizens life is as important as mine or my family's. I also believe in approaching every potential victim as being a member of my family. Weíre paid to provide a service, and that service puts us at extreme risk at times.

    Excellent post and I could not agree more.

    FyredUp

  19. #19
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hfd838 View Post
    I am all for a great debit and by all means bring it. Because the truth be told we are not perfect and all need to train and rethink our tactics on a daily base BUT if you think Plagiarism is the way to go yes Plagiarism you started your thread like it was your writing and then to come find out it was a quote from one of the all time greatest frauds in the history of the fire service. It just goes to show how much you really know if you think Chris Connelly was a respected Chief.
    Twenty-eight years of experience in the fire service. Twenty-six years of experience in the Houston Fire Department as a Suppression Firefighter (1978-1984), Engineer/Operator (1984-1988), Emergency Medical Technician (1984-1988), Suppression Officer (1988-1993), Chief of Training (1993-1995), Suppression District Chief (1995), Safety/Staffing Chief (1996), Planning and Research Chief (1997), Fleet Operations Chief(1998), Assistant Fire Chief (1998-2000), and Acting Fire Chief (October 2000 Ė May 2001).
    Quoting others (oh yes I did in the end!) is not plagiarism! I don't want to get in a boil about your personal views on the Chief brother but he WAS respected in many quarters!

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    99

    Default

    The first annual report of the IAFC's National Firefighter Near-Miss Reporting System specifically states "aggressive mentalities need to transition into purposeful action mentalities." There's a reason emphasis is being placed on institutional culture. When the chief says "if you're outside getting your picture taken by a reporter then you're not doing your job, because you should be inside fighting the fire" that's a negative cultural influence that puts firefighters at unnecessary risk.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. RIT: Fashionable or Useful?
    By islander237 in forum Rapid Intervention
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 01-03-2008, 06:00 PM
  2. Training LODDs 1998-2001
    By Dalmatian90 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-15-2002, 03:32 PM
  3. LODDs & INJURIES AT WILDLAND FIRES/TRAINING
    By SWIDFCWINS in forum Wildland Firefighting
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-11-1999, 10:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts