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    Default sprinklers in firehouse.

    Our station is currently under construction of a new fire station. We want to install a sprinkler system, but if we tap into our towns water system they said there is a charge of $20-$50 per head per month fee. I just wanted to get feedback to see if there is anything else like this out there.

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    This is total bulls***, whether it be a residential, commerical or even a city/town owned building!

    A sprinkler system's water usage is minimal, compared to what the FD would use if the fracking building caught fire!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-15-2007 at 09:04 PM.
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    This isn't an uncommon scenario. We're discovering a whole new front where the fight to get sprinklers into buildings must be fought: greedy water companies with little or no factual understanding of sprinklers or how they work.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    deleted by user
    Last edited by superchef; 08-11-2007 at 08:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shanegib View Post
    Our station is currently under construction of a new fire station. We want to install a sprinkler system, but if we tap into our towns water system they said there is a charge of $20-$50 per head per month fee. I just wanted to get feedback to see if there is anything else like this out there.

    Are we talking about lawn sprinklers or fire protection sprinklers?

    FTM-PTB

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    little bit of a side note but IF you opt not to go with sprinklers, there is a feature out there that, I dont know HOW it works but I know of a few departments that have it...

    but when the bells come in, it shuts the oven down. That way, say you go on a call and leave the oven on, you wont come back to find the place on fire

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    Disclaimer -- I do not work for this company, but I have seen a couple of demos, including one at MFRI (and Mariott uses it)...

    http://www.marioff.com/index_EN.shtml

    http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/Photo-Stories/Maryland-Firefighters-Step-Out-of-Box-for-Protection/45$46033
    Last edited by DianeC; 07-16-2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason: added a missing word
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianeC View Post
    Disclaimer -- I do not work for this company, but I have a couple of demos, including one at MFRI (and Mariott uses it)...
    FWIW, before going too far down this line of thinking, be sure that your state has approved this type of system. They're very promising but they're far enough "outside the box" that many state fire codes haven't caught up with them yet.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Lightbulb Hmmmmmmmm...................

    Diane, I did hang out with some guys at MFRI a few years back, when these heads were being designed. There was some testing done in the burn building, with some really high pressure/low volume stuff. An International Hotel Chain was behind the funding............ Interesting.....
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    Glad to see your fd wants a sprinkler system. What a great way to protect all of your expensive equipment...Good luck dealing with you village idiots...

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    We could never have sprinklers in our house. they would be set off every day by someone with fire works, burning food on the stove, or lighting someones seat on fire.

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    It's called a standby fee and is supposedly charged to offset the cost of water that is stored in the lines and is used for testing, maintenance etc. This is not my ballywick, but I believe in NJ those fees have been outlawed.

    Are you a public FD? If so, you might try taking this one to the streets. I would guess that the public would be outraged at this abuse of taxation authority when an agency is doing the responsible thing in trying to protect their assts and resources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554 View Post
    We could never have sprinklers in our house. they would be set off every day by someone with fire works, burning food on the stove, or lighting someones seat on fire.
    We're talking fire sprinklers here -- not smoke detectors. If firehouse pranks set off the sprinklers it's because some bozo has set the house on fire and they need to go off...
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Tell them you will pay the $25.00 on the month you use their water.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    We're talking fire sprinklers here -- not smoke detectors. If firehouse pranks set off the sprinklers it's because some bozo has set the house on fire and they need to go off...
    We taped off all the smoke detectors in the west side bunk room one day and set up the smoke machine in there. We had the room banked down better then some fires we've been to.

    We forgot to tape off the detectors in the hallway though. And with someone opening and closing the doors it set off the hallway smoke detectors and fire alarm.

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    We have them and it sucks, although firecrackers still dont do much :-) But no more smoking out the housewatch with the garbage can :-(

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    We're talking fire sprinklers here -- not smoke detectors. If firehouse pranks set off the sprinklers it's because some bozo has set the house on fire and they need to go off...
    In the past there has been a few kithchen fires in the house and very often we have a set of sheets or sleeping bag burn up. It happens.

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    Question Huh?...................

    Quote Originally Posted by ehs7554 View Post
    In the past there has been a few kithchen fires in the house and very often we have a set of sheets or sleeping bag burn up. It happens.


    I was gonna ask........... Nevermind.
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    This is a link to an Executive Leadership Paper reporting on a study that was conducted on sprinkler standby fees. Here is an abstract:

    http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/pdf/tr_95tw.pdf

    Standby water fees/user fees for fire sprinkler system connections to water mains, levied by water utility agencies, were being challenged as excessive and unwarranted by fire protection organizations. Most water utility agencies claimed a right to charge standby water fees/user fees and believed they were reasonable and justified. The purpose of the research was to identify and evaluate the issues on both sides of the debate and to formulate recommendations. Historical and descriptive research methodology was use to answer these questions:
    1. Which states have proposed or enacted legislation or rules regulating standby water fees/user fees?
    2. What is a reasonable standby water fee/user fee?
    3. What services do water utility agencies provide to justify their standby water fees/user fees?
    4. What alternatives are available to water utility agencies that depend on the revenue generated by standby water fees/user fees?
    Published literature was reviewed, including detailed accounts of legislative action in Florida and complaint proceedings before the Maine Public Utilities Commission. Two separate survey instruments were prepared. Survey questionnaires were received from state fire marshals in all 50 states. Survey questionnaires were received from 43 water utility directors from Broward County, Florida, and Palm Beach County, Florida.
    The "State Fire Marshal Survey" revealed that legislation and legal challenges regulating or prohibiting standby water fees/user fees had been initiated in six states: California, Florida, Louisiana, Maine, New Jersey, and Wisconsin. The "Water Utility Director Survey" found that 53.3 percent of the water utility agencies in the 2-county area charged standby water fees/user fees. The fee schedules ranged from zero dollars for 20 water utility agencies to $10,283 annually for a 12-inch connection in Jupiter, Florida. The total annual revenue for the 2 counties was $1,785,201. If all or part of this revenue was lost due to a change in state laws a majority of water utility directors favored shifting the cost burden to all customers. The 23 water utility directors that charged fees also indicated the services provided to justify their fees.

    A distinction was made between "standby water fees" and "user fees" for water service. The study found that "user fees" for "administrative costs," "mapping of connections and street valves," "annual inspection and maintenance of street valves," and "contingency funding for eventual replacement of pipe" were reasonable and justified. The study found that "standby water fees" that include "estimate for water that could be used during a fire" and "charges to maintain fire flow capability" were unreasonable and unfair.

    The study recommended support for reasonable "user fees" for water service and recommended the elimination of unreasonable "standby water fees." Boca Raton Utility Services was encouraged to eliminate "charges to maintain fire flow capability" from their fee structure. Water utility agencies in Broward County and Palm Beach County were encouraged to use the statistics in the study as benchmarks to evaluate their own rates. The study also recommended that fire service agencies and water utility agencies open lines of communications to assure the cost of maintaining fire sprinkler systems is fair and reasonable.

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    Default Fm-200

    Why not use FM-200 Fire Suppression Systems? It is a halon replacement and needs no water.

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    Would you still be charged a fee if you had a dry system?

    Here's my thinking - If you're going to go for sprinklers, I would think you would want the ability to have some sort of alarm system monitoring the facility as well. With the installation of an alarm system, you could have heat detectors be the trigger for the system to be charged.

    Do you have a hydrant in front of the station? If you do, perhaps having the FDC for the sprinkler piped to that location would be another smart idea. Run the pipe underground and have it pop up four or five feet away from the hydrant. Worst case scenario you supply the FDC directly from the hydrant with no apparatus in between....
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue View Post
    ....
    No offense, dude, but please take a basic sprinkler class before jumping into this thread again. From your last post it's painfully obvious that you've never taken one before.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    No offense, dude, but please take a basic sprinkler class before jumping into this thread again. From your last post it's painfully obvious that you've never taken one before.
    No offense "dude", but you don't own the forums. It was a design idea that has been implemented in various buildings here in Vermont that sometimes have problems with pipes freezing. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    Having the system dry may be a work around for getting charged the fee. If an alarm system can monitor smoke detectors, CO detectors, heat detectors, etc and then set off bells and whistles, it most certainly can cause a valve to open and pressurize the system.

    Sorry "Dude", I just jumped in again. I've sent the invitation to show you the building(s) I've mentioned. The ball is in your court.
    Last edited by Res343cue; 07-17-2007 at 05:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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    Oh boy....lemme get some popcorn, this is gonna get good......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue View Post
    No offense "dude", but you don't own the forums. It was a design idea that has been implemented in various buildings here in Vermont that sometimes have problems with pipes freezing. Sorry to burst your bubble.

    Having the system dry may be a work around for getting charged the fee. If an alarm system can monitor smoke detectors, CO detectors, heat detectors, etc and then set off bells and whistles, it most certainly can cause a valve to open and pressurize the system.

    Sorry "Dude", I just jumped in again. I've sent the invitation to show you the building(s) I've mentioned. The ball is in your court.
    Please take the Deputy's advice and learn the difference between a wet and dry system. I'm sure 5 minutes with the IFSTA Fire Sprinklers book and you'll see the error in your thinking. BTW, the susyem you describe is known as a pre-action system which is another level beyond the basic dry system. See the book!

    We've also made the argument(to no avail) against connection fees as they are an impediment to building owners adding sprinklers. The costs with having water sitting static at the riser or the heads is ridiculous. If they are terribly concerned they can meter the incoming connection or just raise their rates to everyone as generally sprinkler systems have a greater effects than just the protection of the buildings owners. In any case we'll use ten times the water in an unsprinklered building and it will be "free".
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-17-2007 at 06:42 PM.

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