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  1. #21
    Forum Member BrianB35's Avatar
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    Ok, my two cents. I don't think we're getting the whole story here and there is more that what's being said. He was not fired, he quit. BIG difference.

    What I would like to hear/see are:
    1, How many days did they miss and what % of that was fire related?
    2, Did both employees have the same % of absentences?

    It looks to be a smaller shop and when you have 10 people working and 2-3 no show that can really put a bunch of hurt on your company and its deadlines.


  2. #22
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    Key line:

    while enroute to a place of employment

  3. #23
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    George I was glad to see that I was not the only one that saw that part of the law.

  4. #24
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    Here is a better law, took me a bit to find:
    Title 43 Statute

    VOLUNTEER FIREMEN--JOB PROTECTION

    § 1201. Termination of employment; when prohibited.
    § 1201.1. Discrimination against injured employees prohibited.
    § 1202. Lost time; compensation.
    § 1203. Statement to employer, fire chief.
    § 1204. Definitions.
    § 1205. Revocation of disciplinary action or reinstatement of employee; payments; attorney fees; actions; limitations; jurisdiction and venue.

    § 1201. Termination of employment; when prohibited.

    No employer shall terminate or discipline an employee who is a volunteer fireman, fire police or volunteer member of an ambulance service or rescue squad and in the line of duty has resonded to a call prior to the time he was due to report for work resulting in a loss of time from his employment.
    § 1201.1. Discrimination against injured employees prohibited.

    No employer shall discriminate against any employee because such employee has been injured in the line of duty as a volunteer fireman, fire police or volunteer member of an ambulance service or rescue squad, nor shall any employer discriminate against any employee injured in the line of duty as a volunteer fireman, fire police or volunteer member of an ambulance service or rescue squad who subsequently returns to work after receiving worker's compensation benefits pursuant to the act of June 2, 1915 (P.L. 736, No. 338), known as "The Pennsylvania Workmen's Compensation Act." The term "discriminate" shall mean to discharge or to discipline in a manner inconsistent with the employer's treatment of other similarly situated employees who are injured in the course of their employment or related activities.
    § 1202. Lost time; compensation.

    Any time lost from employment as provided in section 1 [§ 1201] may be charged to the employee's regular pay.
    § 1203. Statement to employer, fire chief.

    Any employee losing time as provided in section 1 [§ 1201] shall supply his employer with a statement from the chief executive officer of his volunteer fire company, ambulance service or rescue squad or its affiliated organization stating that he responded to a call and the time thereof.
    § 1204. Definitions.

    As used in this act, "line of duty" shall mean going to, coming from or during fire prevention and safety activities which includes fire prevention, first aid, rescue and salvage, ambulance service, fire police work, assistance at accidents, control of crowds both on the fire grounds and at occasions of public or general assembly, animal rescue, abatement of conditions due to storm, flood or general peril, abatement or removal of hazards to safety and such other activities as are commonly undertaken by fire companies, ambulance services or rescue squads or their affiliated organizations. The term "employer" includes any individual, partnership, association, corporation, business trust, or any person or group of persons acting directly or indirectly in the interest of an employer in relation to any employee. The term "discipline" shall mean the taking of any action against an employee which adversely affects his regular pay to an extent greater than permitted by section 2 [§ 1202], his job status or opportunity for promotion, or his right to any benefit granted by the employer to other similarly situated employees.
    § 1205. Revocation of disciplinary action or reinstatement of employee; payments; attorney fees; actions; limitations; jurisdiction and venue.

    Any employer who willfully and knowingly violates the provisions of this act shall be required to revoke any disciplinary action and any penalty attached thereto, or to reinstate such employee to his former position and shall be required to pay such employee all lost wages and benefits for the period between termination and reinstatement and any reasonable attorney fees which are incurred in an action to recover lost wages and benefits. Any action to enforce the provisions of this act shall be commenced within the period of two years within the date of violation and such action shall be commenced in the court of common pleas of the county in which the employer is located.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by quint1officer View Post
    Here is a better law, took me a bit to find:
    Title 43 Statute

    VOLUNTEER FIREMEN--JOB PROTECTION

    § 1201. Termination of employment; when prohibited.
    § 1201.1. Discrimination against injured employees prohibited.
    § 1202. Lost time; compensation.
    § 1203. Statement to employer, fire chief.
    § 1204. Definitions.
    § 1205. Revocation of disciplinary action or reinstatement of employee; payments; attorney fees; actions; limitations; jurisdiction and venue.

    § 1201. Termination of employment; when prohibited.

    No employer shall terminate or discipline an employee who is a volunteer fireman, fire police or volunteer member of an ambulance service or rescue squad and in the line of duty has resonded to a call prior to the time he was due to report for work resulting in a loss of time from his employment.
    § 1201.1. Discrimination against injured employees prohibited.

    No employer shall discriminate against any employee because such employee has been injured in the line of duty as a volunteer fireman, fire police or volunteer member of an ambulance service or rescue squad, nor shall any employer discriminate against any employee injured in the line of duty as a volunteer fireman, fire police or volunteer member of an ambulance service or rescue squad who subsequently returns to work after receiving worker's compensation benefits pursuant to the act of June 2, 1915 (P.L. 736, No. 338), known as "The Pennsylvania Workmen's Compensation Act." The term "discriminate" shall mean to discharge or to discipline in a manner inconsistent with the employer's treatment of other similarly situated employees who are injured in the course of their employment or related activities.
    § 1202. Lost time; compensation.

    Any time lost from employment as provided in section 1 [§ 1201] may be charged to the employee's regular pay.
    § 1203. Statement to employer, fire chief.

    Any employee losing time as provided in section 1 [§ 1201] shall supply his employer with a statement from the chief executive officer of his volunteer fire company, ambulance service or rescue squad or its affiliated organization stating that he responded to a call and the time thereof.
    § 1204. Definitions.

    As used in this act, "line of duty" shall mean going to, coming from or during fire prevention and safety activities which includes fire prevention, first aid, rescue and salvage, ambulance service, fire police work, assistance at accidents, control of crowds both on the fire grounds and at occasions of public or general assembly, animal rescue, abatement of conditions due to storm, flood or general peril, abatement or removal of hazards to safety and such other activities as are commonly undertaken by fire companies, ambulance services or rescue squads or their affiliated organizations. The term "employer" includes any individual, partnership, association, corporation, business trust, or any person or group of persons acting directly or indirectly in the interest of an employer in relation to any employee. The term "discipline" shall mean the taking of any action against an employee which adversely affects his regular pay to an extent greater than permitted by section 2 [§ 1202], his job status or opportunity for promotion, or his right to any benefit granted by the employer to other similarly situated employees.
    § 1205. Revocation of disciplinary action or reinstatement of employee; payments; attorney fees; actions; limitations; jurisdiction and venue.

    Any employer who willfully and knowingly violates the provisions of this act shall be required to revoke any disciplinary action and any penalty attached thereto, or to reinstate such employee to his former position and shall be required to pay such employee all lost wages and benefits for the period between termination and reinstatement and any reasonable attorney fees which are incurred in an action to recover lost wages and benefits. Any action to enforce the provisions of this act shall be commenced within the period of two years within the date of violation and such action shall be commenced in the court of common pleas of the county in which the employer is located.
    It will be interesting to see if these guys commence an action against the employer. It appears as if the burden will be on them to prove the employer acted "...willfully and knowingly ..." suspended them in retaliation for their volunteer activities. I would assume that a poor work attendance record and any other derogatory information from their personnel files will be used by the company as a defense.

  6. #26

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    Default heres the story

    ok guys heres the real story im the firefighter that this whole thing is about. was it the absolute best choice to quit? i guess we'll see!!!! what happened was i called out early monday morning becuase i knew my fire co was gonna be on scene awhile securing the crash site.(unfortunatly i live in a rural area where we only have state police 3 troopers on duty on a shift for a very large area, and there was still the threat of a haz mat situation and we were told to stay on scene until the plane was remove wich was about 22 hours after dispatch) that was to answer the questions about why were on scene for so long. when i arrived to work tues morn my supervisor handed me and the other firefighter a 2 day suspension along with making other comments and i figured i didnt have to take his verbal abuse towards me or the fire co. so i walked out . as far as my attendance goes i had missed one other day due to a dwelling fire and then this plane crash. Have i taken a couple of personal days? yes 4 or 5 and also a week off when my brother passed away and 3 days when i broke a toe at the job. My point is if I would have called in sick I seriously dont think I would have been suspended, but becuase I called in and told them I was on an emergency scene my supervisor (who has already showed his discontent for volenteer firefighting) flexed his muscles. now there was one more comment i wanted to reply to. on the scene of the plane crash the reporter that did the story was asking me some questions about my volenteering and she asked how my bosses would react. i told her i wasnt sure. she asked me to let her know if there were any repercussions so after what happened tues morning i gave her a call. when she came to do the interview i was still in my work clothes being that it was about 25 min after i left the job and was about to go do some side work for a friend. and as far as spitting the chew out i dont touch the stuff. i made sure i finished my ciggerette before the interview. so guys thats the scoop am i right for quitting?????? it was my morals and pride for what i do that made me make that decision. and two more things, i am trying to get on a paid department. and god bless all of us paid or unpaid firefighter thank you brothers

  7. #27
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    The company I work for has made it clear to me that they would never fire me for missing work due to being on fire calls. However, my boss made it very clear that "missing work for any reason could be detrimental to an employee's advancement potential." Although I don't completely agree with him, I do see the employer's perspective. I work at a warehouse where it's me and another guy on 2nd shift. If one of us not at work, it really screws the other guy. I hate being that guy!

    I did miss an entire shift once last year when a severe thunderstorm/possible tornado tore up a bunch of our fire district. I called my coworker throughout the day, and made sure that he didn't need me to come in. Luckily, it was a slow day at my real job!

    That being said I never leave work for a call, unless it's close to the end of a shift. I do occasionally come in late due to a call, but I always call and let the boss know. On top of that, I get paid pretty good money to be at work. I don't get paid very much to be on a fire call. I know that I didn't join the FD to make money, but sometimes you have to weigh what's more important...making a fire call for a trash can on fire, or having a job to pay the bills.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fftcarney View Post
    ok guys heres the real story im the firefighter that this whole thing is about. was it the absolute best choice to quit? i guess we'll see!!!! what happened was i called out early monday morning becuase i knew my fire co was gonna be on scene awhile securing the crash site.(unfortunatly i live in a rural area where we only have state police 3 troopers on duty on a shift for a very large area, and there was still the threat of a haz mat situation and we were told to stay on scene until the plane was remove wich was about 22 hours after dispatch) that was to answer the questions about why were on scene for so long. when i arrived to work tues morn my supervisor handed me and the other firefighter a 2 day suspension along with making other comments and i figured i didnt have to take his verbal abuse towards me or the fire co. so i walked out . as far as my attendance goes i had missed one other day due to a dwelling fire and then this plane crash. Have i taken a couple of personal days? yes 4 or 5 and also a week off when my brother passed away and 3 days when i broke a toe at the job. My point is if I would have called in sick I seriously dont think I would have been suspended, but becuase I called in and told them I was on an emergency scene my supervisor (who has already showed his discontent for volenteer firefighting) flexed his muscles. now there was one more comment i wanted to reply to. on the scene of the plane crash the reporter that did the story was asking me some questions about my volenteering and she asked how my bosses would react. i told her i wasnt sure. she asked me to let her know if there were any repercussions so after what happened tues morning i gave her a call. when she came to do the interview i was still in my work clothes being that it was about 25 min after i left the job and was about to go do some side work for a friend. and as far as spitting the chew out i dont touch the stuff. i made sure i finished my ciggerette before the interview. so guys thats the scoop am i right for quitting?????? it was my morals and pride for what i do that made me make that decision. and two more things, i am trying to get on a paid department. and god bless all of us paid or unpaid firefighter thank you brothers
    So.......

    You quit your full-time paying job to stand around a pile of trash and perform a police function? One that the cops were getting paid handsomely for? (I have been to two plane crashes. Cops, including me, were falling over themselves). This was not an emergency detail. This was babysitting for free when others were getting paid at least $50 per hour.

    You missed about 15 days of work and they weren't going to discipline you? Over what period of time?
    Were you right for quitting? You were a fool for quitting.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 07-20-2007 at 11:21 AM.

  9. #29

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    the point i think your missing is that if i had so many unexused absenses y didnt they reprimand me sooner. why is it that the decided to suspend me and the other firefighter after we called out for this incident. and if it was based solely on my attendance why was he also suspended he just started about a month ago and has only missed 1 other day for a dwelling fire??????????

  10. #30

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    and un fortunatly we are not lucky enough to have a local police dept. to babysit things like this

  11. #31

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    Default Who ******ed In Your Cheerio's

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    So.......

    You quit your full-time paying job to stand around a pile of trash and perform a police function? One that the cops were getting paid handsomely for? (I have been to two plane crashes. Cops, including me, were falling over themselves). This was not an emergency detail. This was babysitting for free when others were getting paid at least $50 per hour.

    You missed about 15 days of work this year and they weren't going to discipline you?

    Were you right for quitting? You were a fool for quitting.

    Thank you for your fine example of brotherhood. I am not really sure where you come form, oh, wait, yes I do, because I'm from Roxbury, and where I come from, a clown like you would have been pushed off the black river bank, so you could cool off, rather than be allowed to run around loose ranting and raving like a fool.

    This man is a fire fighter, and simply by that virtue, he is a brother, and we don't trash our brothers, because we are firefighters, and thats what we do.

    Calling him a fool because he left a job that was treating him wrong, and ridiculing him and his brothers? No, I'd thank him for his principles. I'll bet you were present while they crucified Jesus, only to deny him x3?

    Now I feel better. Tim may have been right or wrong, deserved a whack or not, but he earned your respect and mine when he was born into firefighting, and your silly ****** and moans are truly indicative of evreything that is wrong with the profession.

    Have a nice day.

  12. #32
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    So.......

    You quit your full-time paying job to stand around a pile of trash and perform a police function? One that the cops were getting paid handsomely for? (I have been to two plane crashes. Cops, including me, were falling over themselves). This was not an emergency detail. This was babysitting for free when others were getting paid at least $50 per hour.

    You missed about 15 days of work this year and they weren't going to discipline you?

    Were you right for quitting? You were a fool for quitting.
    George, where did you get that it was THIS YEAR? I read fftcarney's post 2 or 3 times and didn't see that he indicated the period of time over which he missed those 15 days of work.

    Been a long day though, and an even longer week so it is possible I've missed something.
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    George, where did you get that it was THIS YEAR? I read fftcarney's post 2 or 3 times and didn't see that he indicated the period of time over which he missed those 15 days of work.

    Been a long day though, and an even longer week so it is possible I've missed something.
    Looking at the article it says July 17 2007 as the date. Who knows though.


    My week ended yesterday. It's a rough life, but somebody has to do it.










    Too bad I have to move all my furniture and stuff this weekend.
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  14. #34
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33 View Post
    Looking at the article it says July 17 2007 as the date. Who knows though.
    What article? What the hellll are ya talkin' about? LOL Stop trying to confuse me, Ryan!


    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdfff33
    My week ended yesterday. It's a rough life, but somebody has to do it.
    ******* LOL.

    TGIFF tomorrow is all I can say.

    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdfff33
    Too bad I have to move all my furniture and stuff this weekend.
    A new home to go with the new baby?
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
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    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  15. #35
    Forum Member ndvfdff33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    What article? What the hellll are ya talkin' about? LOL Stop trying to confuse me, Ryan!




    ******* LOL.

    TGIFF tomorrow is all I can say.



    A new home to go with the new baby?

    The Article in the very first post.


    Yes a new home to go with the new baby. You got it. It would be much easier if someone else was moving it, but thats how the military rolls!
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  16. #36
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    Thought it was just a video, guess I spaced it that there was an article too. Told ya it's been a long week *sigh* LOL

    I'll go back and read it later ... time to get some supper and see if I can get some brain power back
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fftcarney View Post
    ok guys heres the real story im the firefighter that this whole thing is about. was it the absolute best choice to quit? i guess we'll see!!!! what happened was i called out early monday morning becuase i knew my fire co was gonna be on scene awhile securing the crash site.(unfortunatly i live in a rural area where we only have state police 3 troopers on duty on a shift for a very large area, and there was still the threat of a haz mat situation and we were told to stay on scene until the plane was remove wich was about 22 hours after dispatch) that was to answer the questions about why were on scene for so long. when i arrived to work tues morn my supervisor handed me and the other firefighter a 2 day suspension along with making other comments and i figured i didnt have to take his verbal abuse towards me or the fire co. so i walked out . as far as my attendance goes i had missed one other day due to a dwelling fire and then this plane crash. Have i taken a couple of personal days? yes 4 or 5 and also a week off when my brother passed away and 3 days when i broke a toe at the job. My point is if I would have called in sick I seriously dont think I would have been suspended, but becuase I called in and told them I was on an emergency scene my supervisor (who has already showed his discontent for volenteer firefighting) flexed his muscles. now there was one more comment i wanted to reply to. on the scene of the plane crash the reporter that did the story was asking me some questions about my volenteering and she asked how my bosses would react. i told her i wasnt sure. she asked me to let her know if there were any repercussions so after what happened tues morning i gave her a call. when she came to do the interview i was still in my work clothes being that it was about 25 min after i left the job and was about to go do some side work for a friend. and as far as spitting the chew out i dont touch the stuff. i made sure i finished my ciggerette before the interview. so guys thats the scoop am i right for quitting?????? it was my morals and pride for what i do that made me make that decision. and two more things, i am trying to get on a paid department. and god bless all of us paid or unpaid firefighter thank you brothers
    Mr. Carney, sorry to hear about your situation. From the article and from what you have posted, it seems to be a problem with your immediate supervisor. Did you think to take this to his/her boss? I know that this is an emotional issue with you, but I think that I would have tried to find out how far this "disdain for volunteerism" goes in your previous employment. What does the other FF (that was suspended) say about all this?

    Whatever happens in this situation, we all need to remember that our families and our source of income always come first. In your case, I think that it would only take one firefighter to secure the scene. Hopefully this could be accomplished with someone that did not have to report to work the next day. If I were involved with some kind of "life saving" situation, I think that I would have stayed and then taken the two day suspension. But just to "baby sit" this plane????

    Anyway, my rant off for now. Take care and good luck in your future.
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

  18. #38
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    You quit. You made the choice to end your job at this company. It has 0 to do with that company now. It's all about you. End of story.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RspctFrmCalgary View Post
    George, where did you get that it was THIS YEAR? I read fftcarney's post 2 or 3 times and didn't see that he indicated the period of time over which he missed those 15 days of work.

    Been a long day though, and an even longer week so it is possible I've missed something.
    It was probably a poor assumptionon my part. When people discuss their time off from the job, most would discuss what is happening in the current year.

    I edited my above post accordingly.

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    Looking at this from being a former business owner and firefighter I easily see both sides of the coin. For nine years I owned and ran a towing company and most of my employees over the years were involved in fire, EMS, or police in some way several from my own department. With three tow trucks and a lowboy on the road running an average of 35-45 runs a day most of them from 6a to 6p, I relied on my employees to be there when they were supposed to be and on time. My customers counted on us to deliver. If we could not deliver, it cost me money. Many nights I fought fire or work an extrication beside my employee. Many mornings I walked into the house, took a shower and went to work. I did not expect everyone to put in as much time as I did. I would allow an employee to be reasonably late if he had been on an extended call, but not blow a half days work or a full days work. I don't know if its a lack of discipline, laziness or caudling but I had an employee quit because I would not allow him to take off to go to a concert when he called two hours before his shift. He is 30 now and lives with his mother and has not had a job in two years. I had a 25 year old employees mother call me and inform me how inappropriate it was that I wrote up her son for being late for only the second time in 2 months after all it was only 30 minutes. Even within my own department we have people who feel the department should be the highest priority, they usually burn out in a few years. I sold my business in May and have enjoyed running a few more calls, but my priorities remain the same as they have for the sixteen years I've been a member of this department: God, Family, Work, Friends, Department.

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