1. #1
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    Default Looking for Opinions...what do you think

    I dont like to monday morning quarter back but I cant figure out what went wrong with this simple looking fire. If anyone knows exactly what happened then please post. Also what does everyone else think about this fire.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=khyqS__V5Vo

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    Not a big fan of putting a deck gun to use through the vent hole in the roof.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    What?? Other than less than perfect apparatus positioning, interior/exterior operations, worrying about a silly screen door - but not the fire, free flowing air and childishly slinging helmets, unnecessarily pulling everyone out, and shooting over the house while aiming at the vent hole & not in the window with the deck gun, everything looked textbook.
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    Where is the rest of the video, yaa know the part where the entire top floor burns off?????

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    Let me start by saying some house fires are not meant to be extinguished. Who knows what the interior conditions of this house was like. It might have had stuff stacked from the floor to the ceiling. Not only does this make interior ops dangerous, but also dramatically increases the fire loading of the structure. Also houses of this type of construction sometimes contain a closet/storage space on each side of the second floor on the Bravo and Delta sides that extend from the front of the house to the rear of it. This “hidden space” is short, similar to a knee wall making it difficult to find, especially if furniture is blocking the access door. It allows fire to quickly spread to multiple areas throughout.

    There didn’t appear to be much teamwork, i.e. difficulty advancing the primary attack line through the front door. I’m not sure what the manpower situation was, but there was plenty of equipment on scene. I’m guessing the companies did not remain together and work as a team. Where I run, we have three man engines. The first due engine will sometimes need help advancing the initial attack line if the fire is upstairs on in the basement, however this fire appears to be on the first floor rear bedroom. Although not the best of circumstances two firefighters should be able to advance to a first floor fire. One very experienced author has said, “placing the initial attack line is of utmost importance, even if it takes every FF on scene to do so”. He has again been proven correct at this fire.

    Removing the front screen door isn’t a bad idea, especially if it is getting in the way. The FF removing the door probably should have had full turnout gear on. A third line up to the second floor wouldn’t be a bad idea. At 4:30 command is requesting a PAR. It is possible that someone got lost inside.

    The FF spraying the Bravo side with the attack line is probably trying to prevent auto-exposure into the attic via the eaves. The FF (officer?) that comes out and throws his helmet down doesn’t do much for PR. He should probably be sent to the corner for throwing a temper tantrum. The washing of the roof with the deck gun seemed dumb, although the roof team appears to have done a good job. Seems to be a fair amount of freelancing, and a shortage of organized aggression.

    This appears to be your average bread and butter fire. I can’t say exactly what caused them to lose this one. Going defensive might have been premature, but without knowing all of the details it would be difficult to say. Worst-case scenario considered, nobody would fault you for going defensive and sending everyone home to their families in the morning.

    PS: I think the cameraman may have sharted at 5:28 when the sound the air horns. Not sure if that is important or not.
    Last edited by traumawave; 07-19-2007 at 12:32 PM.
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    The fire got behind the walls/ceilings/nooks/crawlspaces/etc. Add that to what Memphis said, and that's pretty much the answer.

    I should also mention that it was an inappropriate use of the deck gun. They came out way to early.
    Last edited by RedFox0457; 07-19-2007 at 12:36 PM.

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    Fire in a concealed space that they never opened up...as to why they didn't open it up, I couldn't say.

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    While it wasn't pretty, I was happy to leave this one alone until I saw the deck gun use. Amazing we still use deck guns to prove the carpenters did a good job. And in the vent hole? Sorry but completely off the wall! I hope the crew going back in after the evacuation wasn't in there when the gun started flowing!

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    The guy tossing his lid and yelling stuff hmm? The smoke came chugging out of the roof once it was opened up. Lobbing water outside while a crew is inside????

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    At 2min 46 you can see a PPV fan in the walkway to the front door. At this time there are already at least 3 uncontolable vent holes that I have counted, maybe more that I have not seen in the video. At 3:07 smoke conditions are getting worse at a rapid rate. At 3:25 it has banked down very quickly in the area, which may indicate cold smoke when you take into account that the rest of the video it was pretty clear. If in fact it was cold smoke, than I would venture to guess that the fan was in operation and was simply airing the fire. After about 1 minute of where I noticed the fan the smoke started to rise again, which is indicating to me the fire is now catching up and getting a hold. I am purely guessing, but I bet the guy that tosses his helmet came out and saw the fan and said WTF! Add that with the other things mentioned above and I think you have a pretty good answer.

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    after watching the video,i noticed something "weird" for me:the guy who used the halligan,had no PPE and he worked alone,forcing the door.i thought when you pop a door or force entry,you do the "tango" with the IRONS.but that is just what i learnt with some american firefighters when i chatted with them,i'm not firefighter.

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    Only guessing, not criticizing: Was there water or pump problems? Saw a kink in line thru front, not enough pressure? There was a shot of some outside water but did interior crews not have enough? May be why that brother flung his helmet. No change in smoke to indicate water flowing. Been there with the helmet thing, of course I would be much more careful now with my Sam Embarassingly enough we at one time burned up the house of a brother FF from another city. Had pump problems that weren't noticeable until 2nd and 3rd lines went into play. Sometimes this crap happens.

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    Anybody ever see a hook go inside?

    My guess, truck operations were performed too little, too late.

    I saw a fancy ladder truck, what did they do? Engine work?
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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    Balloon Framing Sucks, you either need to get multiple crews opening walls and ceilings or get a piercing nozzle in operation on the hidden fire, they look like they got behind by not having enough people to start and then it snowballed on them. Also did not see an IR. camera in use by anyone.

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    I see several things wrong with this video.

    If it is Monday morning quarterbacking, so be it.
    • They are using aluminum ladders instead of wood.
    • They are using the wrong style helmets
    • They have the wrong color turnouts on
    • They are not using the right style of apparatus
    • The color of the apparatus is wrong
    • Not all the Incident Command vests were handed out
    • Nobody got together and sang kumbiya before entering the structure
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    Along the same lines as PFDT18...the much needed simultaneous function of all aspects of TRUCK WORK is absent in the initial stages of the fire. It's hard to make the fire building act the way you want it without it. Wether it's beyond their control or not, sometimes the Engine just can't advance to the seat of the fire by themselves with success. Unfortunately it's happening all over America from a lack of staffing and sometimes from just not knowing any way different.

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    Did anyone else notice that after the horns sound a crew goes back inside a few minutes later. At about the 6:50 mark people start going back in.

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    yeah I noticed the guys going back in as well. And PFDTruck18 brings up a good point.......... I only saw one tool on this entire seen; the haligan that the guy used to take off the front door and then he just throws it down on the front porch. As many others have said we don't know what the conditions were like in the house but I bet if they did some truck work and pulled the ceilings the might of been able to catch this one!! Fireman helpers my butt!!!! For all you engine men out there; thats what happens with no truckies!!!!!

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    Improper truck work, other than the roof guys. Deck gun through the vent hole? They should have pulled the screen door on the initial line. Stupid little thing like that can slow the first line just enough. Where were the interior truck guys?

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    Just remember, it's not continuous footage. There are breaks in the filming where events we don't see MIGHT be occurring.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFDTruck18 View Post
    Anybody ever see a hook go inside?

    My guess, truck operations were performed too little, too late.

    I saw a fancy ladder truck, what did they do? Engine work?
    Looked like someone grabbed ladders off the engine in front. Always an engine in front!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by quint1officer View Post
    Looked like someone grabbed ladders off the engine in front. Always an engine in front!!
    Isn't it part of ECC test is to be able to line up the speedlay/crosslays with the front door? Of course the "Sumptin" aerial bucket wouldn't allow for venting from the bucket anyway, and we can assume they didn't start of thinking this was a loser?

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    1/2 stories (as in building) suck. If you focus on the high attic without addressing the fire that is probably cranking in the low attic, you are screwed and are setting yourself up for a bad day.
    Last edited by FDAIC485; 07-20-2007 at 08:52 PM.
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    My guess, fire behind the kneewalls. Walls not opened for some reason.

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    Default What?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Isn't it part of ECC test is to be able to line up the speedlay/crosslays with the front door?
    I do hope your kidding (sarcasm is hard to get on a computer sometimes).

    Of, for those that dont know, the front of the building is for the TRUCK company.
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