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  1. #1
    Forum Member SmealLadder1's Avatar
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    Default AERIAL Head to Head

    I know some of you have been following the auto leveling and see Metz would challenge a head to head for aerial to aerial.

    How and at what level would the head to head be staged?

    How the aerial meets NFPA? or not?

    Vertical reach?

    Ease of Maintenance?

    I could go on and on. What would everyone like to see on an actual head to head competition of one aerial to the next and what format would the information be fairly reported to?

    There would have to be a third party witness and report agreed upon by both parties?

    Aerial or Platform?

    This could be an interesting topic of discussion.


  2. #2
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    Default

    Scrub area should be measured. Place all apparatus at the same point and measure the full range of one side of the truck. This point could be the closest point the aerial can touch the ground at 90 degrees to the body.

    Timed continuous rescue. Lets put a large number (20?) of "victims" on the 5th (whatever) floor of a building and measure the time it takes to pull up, set up and get all victims to the ground staying within load chart limitations. Basically set up time means little, its really the time from arrival to the time work can begin that is important.

    These are just two of the items I'd want to see in a head to head.

  3. #3
    Forum Member canuck1's Avatar
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    Default good one

    Quote Originally Posted by SmealLadder1 View Post
    I know some of you have been following the auto leveling and see Metz would challenge a head to head for aerial to aerial.

    How and at what level would the head to head be staged?

    How the aerial meets NFPA? or not?

    Vertical reach?

    Ease of Maintenance?

    I could go on and on. What would everyone like to see on an actual head to head competition of one aerial to the next and what format would the information be fairly reported to?

    There would have to be a third party witness and report agreed upon by both parties?

    Aerial or Platform?

    This could be an interesting topic of discussion.
    You bring up a very good point.... everything should be considered...not just How fast one can be set up, or how fast someone can get to full extension, but rather, carrying capacity, pumping ability, flexability of design, maneuvarability, footprint, tip load, vertical reach, horizontal reach, lighting options, ...the list goes on.... You know, the more I think about it, this competition would be a complete waste of time.

    Forget it.

  4. #4
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Default

    How so? I'd love to see a head to head,job to job from ALL the mfgs.Both in aerials and platforms.As we're getting ready to invest,I've looked at a LOT of equipment.I've found features on a lot that I like but few have really stood far and away better than the rest. This forum has been a wealth of stuff to explore,even with the petty snipes.I've questioned,aggravated some,and gotten good answers to a lot of unasked questions. In the process,I've met a bunch of wonderful people,the downside of the process is there is going to be only one "winner".I'm looking forward to the end of the process so another project can be taken on but with that also comes a bit of sadness as the Platform process nears the bidding time,at which point we've reached the point where the Boss makes the final decision.It's good to be in the #2 slot. T.C.

  5. #5
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    Default

    For sure we need Michael Buffer.

  6. #6
    Forum Member SmealLadder1's Avatar
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    Default

    The point I am trying to make, is that no one manufacturer will EVER be the sole winner. As diverse of a difference as there is between Metz and Smeal for example, we would each have our own qualities that worked better than the next. The point is, if the Metz works for one department, the Smeal may not and the same goes the other direction. What works for one department to have a Smeal, may only be because of a single feature the Metz does not have. It may not be the whole truck that makes the difference. Both build good quality products and both do the job in a slightly different manner.

    The more complicated topic and often just as, if not more important than some of the features, is the “After the Sale” issues. Is there local service support? How well do they stand behind their product? How long does it take to get parts? Parts shipped in 24 hours for critical parts? Ease of maintenance?

    Let’s face it, most of you are going to buy the truck from a dealership you have worked with for years that you trust. And many times you will sacrifice or work around a certain feature to buy the truck from that person. This is still and always will be a people business.

    Where are the Kool-Aid drinkers? Have not heard from them yet?

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SmealLadder1 View Post
    The point I am trying to make, is that no one manufacturer will EVER be the sole winner. As diverse of a difference as there is between Metz and Smeal for example, we would each have our own qualities that worked better than the next. The point is, if the Metz works for one department, the Smeal may not and the same goes the other direction. What works for one department to have a Smeal, may only be because of a single feature the Metz does not have. It may not be the whole truck that makes the difference. Both build good quality products and both do the job in a slightly different manner.

    The more complicated topic and often just as, if not more important than some of the features, is the “After the Sale” issues. Is there local service support? How well do they stand behind their product? How long does it take to get parts? Parts shipped in 24 hours for critical parts? Ease of maintenance?

    Let’s face it, most of you are going to buy the truck from a dealership you have worked with for years that you trust. And many times you will sacrifice or work around a certain feature to buy the truck from that person. This is still and always will be a people business.

    Where are the Kool-Aid drinkers? Have not heard from them yet?
    I darn near posted more or less the same comments, but figured I'd get flamed for them. I'll attach it below though, cause I saved it thinking maybe I'd get around to posting it:

    At the risk of being flamed for this, but this is the problem with a "shootout" of this nature. What's important to the FDNY is probably not nearly as vital to my little department. Some want a quint, some don't even want a pre-piped waterway... Does it need to bend in the middle? Have a bucket? On and on.

    So many different variables are assigned differing values of importance by every department's operational needs, I would bet for 100 different evaluators pitting two different products against one another, you would have 100 different results if you assigned a point value to every quality. I don't care if its Metz, Smeal, Scope, ALF, RK, Pierce or anyone else.

    I will still stand by my opinion that every aerial offers unique qualities that are best suited to some departments, not so much to others. Isn't that how everyone selling them stays in business?
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

  8. #8
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    Talking Getting old...

    Quote Originally Posted by SmealLadder1 View Post
    I know some of you have been following the auto leveling and see Metz would challenge a head to head for aerial to aerial.

    How and at what level would the head to head be staged?

    How the aerial meets NFPA? or not?

    Vertical reach?

    Ease of Maintenance?

    I could go on and on. What would everyone like to see on an actual head to head competition of one aerial to the next and what format would the information be fairly reported to?

    There would have to be a third party witness and report agreed upon by both parties?

    Aerial or Platform?

    This could be an interesting topic of discussion.
    If you would spend as much time trying to improve your aerial sales as you do wasting your time on these stupid forums... Smeal might be a better fire truck.

  9. #9
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    Default ..and the point is?

    …..now i am confused…….

    one proposes a contest……….then another mfg jumps in with the same “original” idea and starts a new topic on it………

    …….and then the second one who starts the thread seems to back away from the idea when it looks unpopular….and then the first one echoes the same……

    ……………so why even post a thread on some head to head with no intention of doing it??????

    this is starting to look like a publicity stunt that failed…

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Default

    ahhhh....nevermind
    Last edited by npfd801; 07-20-2007 at 11:57 PM.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

  11. #11
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    Default

    …to clarify npfd801………i was just wondering why smealladder1 posted a new thread on this head to head thing ………seeming to take up the challenge only to back away from it as if they had no intention…….. why waste time on the subject?... never mind is right….

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthNaerials View Post
    …to clarify npfd801………i was just wondering why smealladder1 posted a new thread on this head to head thing ………seeming to take up the challenge only to back away from it as if they had no intention…….. why waste time on the subject?... never mind is right….


    I usually delete 90% of the posts I type up before hitting the send button. That last one slipped through, but I knew people would see it in their e-mails if you subscribe to that feature, but like you said - never mind - this isn't my fight.

    I'm just a lowly salesman, who works for a dealership. I do my best and hope the folks that I get to meet at least like ME a little bit, and if they like my products even better. I still think an attempted sale that ends in some friendships but no sale is not a failure, but the foundation for future potential....but now I'm going way off topic. Hell, the reason I like my job so much is I get to meet firefighters almost daily, talk shop and see how they do things, and bring some of it back to my department. If they like my stuff great, but if they don't - I'm not going to take it personally.

    I need a beer.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

  13. #13
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    HEHATEME, you and guys who think like you, caused me to issue the call for a shootout. My challenge was not directed at any manufacturer but to the "Super-Posters" who just type away and don't have a clue of what they are talking about. The forum regarding aerial leveling has been very productive because we are hearing from folks who are making some good observations from around the table. The guy with the most sense actually went out and measured his set-up, something he would probably have never done without the information we have been posting. HEHATEME's comments about Smeal were uncalled for. Smeal builds good products and are fair competitors. Regardless of what the mindless think most of us in the business know that we will never be the sole supplier of aerial products. The keen competition keeps all of us on our toes and assures the end users a good piece of equipment. I, like others in the business, am willing to work hard and compete but I absolutely refuse to keep quiet when someone who has not a clue starts spreading their BS.

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    Default Joe cool...

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaronl32 View Post
    HEHATEME, you and guys who think like you, caused me to issue the call for a shootout. My challenge was not directed at any manufacturer but to the "Super-Posters" who just type away and don't have a clue of what they are talking about. The forum regarding aerial leveling has been very productive because we are hearing from folks who are making some good observations from around the table. The guy with the most sense actually went out and measured his set-up, something he would probably have never done without the information we have been posting. HEHATEME's comments about Smeal were uncalled for. Smeal builds good products and are fair competitors. Regardless of what the mindless think most of us in the business know that we will never be the sole supplier of aerial products. The keen competition keeps all of us on our toes and assures the end users a good piece of equipment. I, like others in the business, am willing to work hard and compete but I absolutely refuse to keep quiet when someone who has not a clue starts spreading their BS.
    When manufacturers set themselves up, its like, uh, the same thing when Snoopy got the - nevermind.

  15. #15
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    HeHateMe, I have to agree with RedBaron.....Your comments here are unwelcome as much as they are unwarranted. Therefore I challenge you to present yourself. Who are you? What do you do for a living? How long have you been involved in the Fire Service? What is your association with Fire Apparatus in general- are you a salesperson, an engineer, a dealer? If you aren't going to answer, go back to sipping your appleton kool-aid.

    PUT up or SHUT up.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 07-21-2007 at 08:40 AM.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  16. #16
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    I echo that notion. I've had the pleasure of dealing with Smeal and found them knowledgeable and quick to respond to product inquires.And they build what I would call a well laid out product.As was mentioned in another thread,if you WANT to call the Baron out:you better eat your Wheaties and bring something bigger than your first popgun to the shootout. I'm a firm believer in what 801 states,there is a product for everyone and no single product will be the single end all to the aerial market.For example:How many "bucket"doors can you roll a wheelchair into? Is this important to you? Probably not but for some buyers it might be VERY important.Or water delivery.The list is endless as are the possibilities. There is a lot of information to be had in these "stupid"forums BUT you have to be willing to open your eyes and ears,think outside the crib and keep other items secured.Oh, and there might be a reason for the moniker,just a guess. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 07-21-2007 at 09:49 AM.

  17. #17
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    I think that if you you put each and every aerial manufacturer in a head to head competition, one would walk away with a lot of great ideas and would probably dream of incorporating a bit of each manufacturer's technology into the rig they would like to have built for their department.

    That would be a E-Metz-Sutph-ALF-Smearce-RK-One!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-21-2007 at 11:43 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  18. #18
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    I think tha tif you you put each and every aerial manufacturer in a head to head competition, one would walk away with a lot of great ideas and would probably dream of incorporating a bit of each manufacturer's technology into the rig they would like to have built for their department.

    That would be a E-Metz-Sutph-ALF-Smearce-RK-One!
    Or an Aerialscope. On a CF Chassis of course!

    Sorry. Had to say it.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  19. #19
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Or an Aerialscope. On a CF Chassis of course!

    Sorry. Had to say it.
    Don't be sorry.. I wish Mack would go back and make custom chassis for fire trucks!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  20. #20
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Damn dinosaurs.Pretty soon the troops are going to be swearing at you two like they do me.Ancient technology(but it works).No keyboard though.You could still do a 'scope on the MR lookalike that wouldn't bee too bad.Nah,look what you've made me do,hehe T.C.

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