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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Default Believe this is the Denver Drill

    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    Yes this is the Denver Drill. In fact a well perfected Denver Drill operation. When I teach it to people they realize it's hard work. I stress the importance of practicing it at their training nights.i also stress the importance of this would be in a very high heat and shi**y environment. My people practice this and are very good at it. We work and work on FF survival drills as I believe every firefighter should know how to do this stuff as an instinct.

    Is this your fd? I saw VBFD on the one guys coat. How ever it is good job!!

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday05 View Post
    Yes this is the Denver Drill. In fact a well perfected Denver Drill operation. When I teach it to people they realize it's hard work. I stress the importance of practicing it at their training nights.i also stress the importance of this would be in a very high heat and shi**y environment. My people practice this and are very good at it. We work and work on FF survival drills as I believe every firefighter should know how to do this stuff as an instinct.

    Is this your fd? I saw VBFD on the one guys coat. How ever it is good job!!
    Yes. That is the Capt of Engine 19A and at the time, on of the master firefighters from training. That MFF is now the Capt of Eng 12C
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  4. #4
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    We still train on this, but have been using a ladder outside the window as a "high point" and using a rope to lift the downed guy.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  5. #5
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    this is a great drill,it is unbeliveable how hard it is to do the 1st time, but my dept. practice this drill all the time and we have became very good at it.every dept. should build or barrow this drill for some great training!!!!!!!!

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    We still train on this, but have been using a ladder outside the window as a "high point" and using a rope to lift the downed guy.
    This looks like a good idea. Somethings I've been thinking about while looking at your picture and picturing an "actual" scene

    1. I would get the downed FF on air initially. Be it through buddy breathing or plugging him into a new bottle.

    2. I would recommend using stay poles and ropes to foot the ladder on three sides. From left and right rails to the sides to ensure as the firefighter twists and moves coming out of the window, the ladder does not start shifting from the dynamic weight changes. And of course use the third to foot the ladder in the usual manner.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  7. #7
    Forum Member frenchfireball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday05 View Post
    Yes this is the Denver Drill. In fact a well perfected Denver Drill operation. When I teach it to people they realize it's hard work. I stress the importance of practicing it at their training nights.i also stress the importance of this would be in a very high heat and shi**y environment. My people practice this and are very good at it. We work and work on FF survival drills as I believe every firefighter should know how to do this stuff as an instinct.

    Is this your fd? I saw VBFD on the one guys coat. How ever it is good job!!

    you are a RIT instructor,aren't you?i just have a question,do all the firefighters have to know and do this drill(which seems to be very hard)?i was just wondering cause we do not have RITS/RICS in france.

    is this a drill you do at the fire academy when you are probie?or is this just for the members of RITS?
    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"

    2 french mottoes in french fire service.

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    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
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    I have a few non-believers in my department that need to be given a wake-up. If anybody has a (legal) source for raw footage of the Denver incident that inspired this drill, I'd be greatful for a link. My preference is for digital, but I'm not that picky. I've struck out Googling so far.
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  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchfireball View Post
    you are a RIT instructor,aren't you?i just have a question,do all the firefighters have to know and do this drill(which seems to be very hard)?i was just wondering cause we do not have RITS/RICS in france.

    is this a drill you do at the fire academy when you are probie?or is this just for the members of RITS?
    To answer your question all of my firefighters know haw to do this drill. And yes I believe that in my own opinion that all firefighters should know how to do this drill period. Yes it's hard but we're talking about a fellow firefighter here. I am very proud that my people and other departments around us stepped up and wanted to learn all of this. And it wasn't lets do it once and then we're done it was lets keep doing this until we're good at it lets try this and that to make it easier. Can't ask for a better group of people!! Showing people something once and them saying "all that will never happen" really ****es me off or you show them once and they act like they know how to do everything.

    We are talking about firefighter safety and survival here. Every firefighter should know how to perform this and perform other survival skills. Yes I also feel that a probie should know how to do this as well. An in my opinion this would work with a civillian as well not just a ff. Hope this helps.

  10. #10
    Forum Member frenchfireball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday05 View Post
    To answer your question all of my firefighters know haw to do this drill. And yes I believe that in my own opinion that all firefighters should know how to do this drill period. Yes it's hard but we're talking about a fellow firefighter here. I am very proud that my people and other departments around us stepped up and wanted to learn all of this. And it wasn't lets do it once and then we're done it was lets keep doing this until we're good at it lets try this and that to make it easier. Can't ask for a better group of people!! Showing people something once and them saying "all that will never happen" really ****es me off or you show them once and they act like they know how to do everything.

    We are talking about firefighter safety and survival here. Every firefighter should know how to perform this and perform other survival skills. Yes I also feel that a probie should know how to do this as well. An in my opinion this would work with a civillian as well not just a ff. Hope this helps.
    thank you for your reply,you explained very well your point of view and it helps me to understand the way you "work" with RIT.
    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"

    2 french mottoes in french fire service.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber dday05's Avatar
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    You are very welcome! RIT/ FAST teams are for protecting our own firefighters. They are assigned to stand by with tools incase of any type of an emergency should ever happen to one of our fellow firefighters. Their only assignment is RIT. There are several things to learn in firefighter survival training. The survival training such as maybe a rope bailout, ladder bailout, wall breach or removing your pack do to a tanglement situation or a swim maneuver with your pack to get out of a bad situation. There are some other things as well. This training would hopefully avoid the use of athe RIT team. If a RIT team was to be deployed it is very labor intensive and gruelling work. Hope this helps you understand a bit. If we don't look out for our fellow firefighters then who will???

  12. #12
    Forum Member st42stephenAFT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    We still train on this, but have been using a ladder outside the window as a "high point" and using a rope to lift the downed guy.

    Wait... is that two Mr. Vogel's in that picture Bones?!?!?! DUN DUN DUN!


    I remember doing that drill. It was interesting, and sure as hell effective.

  13. #13
    Forum Member frenchfireball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday05 View Post
    You are very welcome! RIT/ FAST teams are for protecting our own firefighters. They are assigned to stand by with tools incase of any type of an emergency should ever happen to one of our fellow firefighters. Their only assignment is RIT. There are several things to learn in firefighter survival training. The survival training such as maybe a rope bailout, ladder bailout, wall breach or removing your pack do to a tanglement situation or a swim maneuver with your pack to get out of a bad situation. There are some other things as well. This training would hopefully avoid the use of athe RIT team. If a RIT team was to be deployed it is very labor intensive and gruelling work. Hope this helps you understand a bit. If we don't look out for our fellow firefighters then who will???
    that is nice from you to explain me,the way the RIT work and train.it is pretty new for us,RIT.in France,the firefighters do not have RIT,they" work in twos".each firefighter takes care of his bro on fireground and maybe we will have to think about RIT in the future of the french fire service.

    but i saw some impressive pics about RIT on trainings,a friend(american firefighter who is a member of RIT)sent me these pics.
    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"

    2 french mottoes in french fire service.

  14. #14
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    DocVBFDE14, renewing the air supply is a given. The mask just did not like staying on the mannequin.

    Use of stay poles and additional ropes for stabilization are fine, long as there is time. The ladder moving side to side has only been slight, but noteworthy. We've gone as far as 35' extended for a 3rd floor removal with very little motion. It's still a concern.

    More pictures from the rest of the drill.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  15. #15
    Forum Member footrat's Avatar
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    Consider also that, depending upon the construction and conditions, it may be quicker/safer to put one person in the space to ready the downed firefighter and check his air supply, and then not even do the Denver drill.

    Make sure that if you're teaching this drill to people that they don't think of it as the only solution to this problem. If all you've got is a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails.

    If the building construction allows it, it might be better to just take that window and make it a door. Cut it to the floor on both sides, then cut across the bottom. Now you can just drag the downed firefighter out, instead of putting two men inside a cramped space and trying to work. This is also a great option if you don't want to stick people's heads up into high heat venting out the window. It also might be a better option if the window is particularly high, and lifting someone to the sill is going to be a long reach for the guy on the bottom pushing up.

    Here's a picture of my crew doing the Denver drill with a guy facing downward instead of upward like in the video. Slightly different technique, which I find works better than the way it was done in the video. Faster, uses body mechanics a little more, and allows the legs to do the work.

    The first guy in does just like in the video, packaging, securing the downed man's air, etc. He sits the downed man up, no matter which way he's facing, to make room for the second guy in. The second guy comes in and puts his back to the floor (he may need to adjust his airpack), head toward the window. Feet go on the back or the front of the downed firefighter. It's harder if the downed guy is facing away from the window, but doable. The first guy in, who is now the furthest from the window, lifts up on the downed man, however he can, to get the downed man's butt off the ground. The man with his back on the floor uses his legs to help arc the downed man up and out the window. If the arms are facing the man on the bottom, he can pull down on them to help leverage the downed man up and over. If performed properly, this technique requires very little effort from the guy on the bottom, and somewhat less from the guy in the back, since the guy on the bottom is lifting with his legs. The guys on the outside have the hardest job, since they're possibly off the ground on a ladder, and having to catch this guy coming out a window, and pull him over the edge. The video said 28", but our drill was set up with 24" of space, and an extra-high window sill, as well as far less length in the "hallway." It was more like a coat closet with a window.

    The guy on the bottom.
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...S/IMG_1025.jpg

    From the side.
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...S/IMG_1026.jpg

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    Forum Member footrat's Avatar
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    Sorry, double post.
    Last edited by footrat; 08-17-2007 at 05:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by footrat View Post
    If the building construction allows it, it might be better to just take that window and make it a door. Cut it to the floor on both sides, then cut across the bottom. Now you can just drag the downed firefighter out, instead of putting two men inside a cramped space and trying to work.
    I need to rewatch the original poster's video, I may have missed something. But as the instructor was explaining the Denver incident, I was wondering why they didn't in fact do this (cut the window out). Was there something preventing that? For some reason that would have been my initial thought. You may still have to send someone in to prevent possible injury to the downed FF and to supply him with air.

    Can someone give insight? Was this not possible at the Denver incident? I admit I am not too familiar with it other than reading about the Denver Drill.

  18. #18
    Forum Member fireman4949's Avatar
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    I have just completed the construction of a Denver Drill training prop for my dept. I built it to the dimensions of the room that FF Langvardt lost his life in.
    I am nearly done (with the exception of insertion of photos and video clips) with a power-point presentation of the drill.

    I plan to have our crews attempt the rescue as they find it, without having previously seen any of the methods currently being taught. Then, I will make the presentation that describes several variations of the drill, and once again have them perform the rescue using these methods. It should be very interesting to see how much quicker the rescue is made using these techniques.

    I hope to start the training in a week, or two. I will start with my station, then my shift and finally, hopefully the entire dept.

    Once I have my power-point presentation completed, I would be more than happy to send it to anyone that would like it.




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  19. #19
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949 View Post
    I have just completed the construction of a Denver Drill training prop for my dept. I built it to the dimensions of the room that FF Langvardt lost his life in.
    I am nearly done (with the exception of insertion of photos and video clips) with a power-point presentation of the drill.

    I plan to have our crews attempt the rescue as they find it, without having previously seen any of the methods currently being taught. Then, I will make the presentation that describes several variations of the drill, and once again have them perform the rescue using these methods. It should be very interesting to see how much quicker the rescue is made using these techniques.

    I hope to start the training in a week, or two. I will start with my station, then my shift and finally, hopefully the entire dept.

    Once I have my power-point presentation completed, I would be more than happy to send it to anyone that would like it.




    Kevin
    That's great and if you have a description of the prop you are building that would be great too.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  20. #20
    Forum Member fireman4949's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    That's great and if you have a description of the prop you are building that would be great too.
    The entire prop is 10' long, 28" wide (inside dimension) and the window has a sill height of 42" from the interior floor.

    It is constructed out of 2X4 framing with 1/2" plywood walls and 3/4" plywood flooring.

    I made it so that there are a total of only 14-5/16" carriage bolts and about 8-3" deck screws that hold the walls, floor and support braces together. That way it can easily be broken down into 4 separate pieces and can easily be transported or stored as needed. It can be fully assembled in about 5-10 minutes by just one person.

    When fully assembled, it is extremely rigid and should hopefully last for many years.

    I'll post a few pics of it when as soon as I can.
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