1. #1
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    Default PTO driven hydraulic power units.

    I am gathering information to plan a new rescue truck and I am looking at PTO driven hydraulic power units. Does anyone have any feedback on the various systems that are available for Hurst tools?

    The systems I have come across so far are:

    1 - XRT Power Systems
    2 - E-one proprietary system
    3 - Hurst Octo-flow

    With the XRT, I would only be interested in their PTO driven or Onan Protec pumps. I have seen a few references to the Hurst octoflow system, but I cannot find any information. Does anyone have any of these systems and can provide feedback?

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    Thumbs down

    Just be careful using another manufacturers system with your tools. Many times it can void your warranty.

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    The main issue I have seen are ones of maintenance and cost. They are expensive and,
    if the hydraulics need service, the truck is out of service, and if the truck is down, the hydraulics are out of service. You have to figure in the cost of a back up pump, portable, for the tools, in case they have to be taken off the truck.
    Also, the performance of the hydraulics are dependant upon the truck at a certain idle speed, too slow, poor performance, too high, a danger to FF's using tools, or tools not working due to safety relief valves in the tools bypassing if they are so equipped. I realize the same holds true for a portable pump with a Honda motor, but, it is a lot easier to control the idle on that little pump, than todays computer infested red toolboxs we drive.
    I have not heard many trained honest tool reps push the PTO systems, salesmen for the most part will say anything though.
    Whatever brand of tools you use, it is my opinion from field experience, and from observance in the departments I have worked with across the counry, including my own, an electric pump, with a generator is the way better option. A PTO generator if you like, but that way the whole hydraulic tool system can be moved to another apparatus if necessary, and/or powered by a portable generator. Worst case, what if the truck is wrecked?

    And, as stated, be careful of the warranty on your tools, and NFPA liability, mixing up tool brands.

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    PTO driven power units for hydraulic tools are SWEET. Most departments don't use them because of price. If you can afford it, get it. I've never heard on anyone experiencing problems with flow due to idle speed. Most units have a "constant speed drive" built internally to protect against fluctuations in RPM. If there's a problem with idle, then you've got a bigger problem because it's probably the truck and not the power unit.

    We called Hurst, (800) 537-2659; they were able to email me information about the Octoflow systems. It has a 4, 6, 8 port system. The reservoir is top mounted for easy service.

    I think tool liability due to mixing systems is a weak excuse by a salesman to keep you in their particular system. Think about, hydraulics is the same regardless of if its water or oil. The pump pushes fluid to the hoses...hoses feeds it to the tools...and the tools deliver the fluid to either the extend or retract side of the piston. When the pistion meets resistance the fluid pressurizes from the pump. When it reaches its max pressure, the fluid bypasses through the relief valve in the pump. (The other side of the tool piston is opened to the hose again and returned to the power unit). If anyone believes differently, I'll listen to a valid reason or example. But I find it hard to blame a tool for a power unit failing, or the power unit causing a tool to fail.

    I know every tool Hurst sells is NFPA 1936 certified. But I'm not sure about the Octoflow system. I believe it may be a system designed for Hurst by someone else. If the Octoflow is not NFPA certified, then all tools running on that system is not NFPA certified regardless if it has a certification. Check with Hurst on NFPA also.

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    You have the basics of hydraulics down, but really don't understand what you are talking about.
    Ford, Chevy and Dodge all use internal combustion engines that operate on the same basic principle, but the parts are not interchangable.
    The same goes for tools, because, each builder uses different flow rates, different pressure switches and different safety valve settings, and these are only a few of the differences. That is why a "system" has to be submitted to a testing entity to be certified to nfpa1936, and not an individual tool. They don't just have an nfpa pump there, and attached tool a, b and c to it.
    The liability is on the department if they do and have an injury.

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    octoflow is manufactured by Hurst. Has the same nfpa certifications as the rest of the product line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrtrescue10 View Post
    You have the basics of hydraulics down, but really don't understand what you are talking about.
    Ford, Chevy and Dodge all use internal combustion engines that operate on the same basic principle, but the parts are not interchangable.
    The same goes for tools, because, each builder uses different flow rates, different pressure switches and different safety valve settings, and these are only a few of the differences. That is why a "system" has to be submitted to a testing entity to be certified to nfpa1936, and not an individual tool. They don't just have an nfpa pump there, and attached tool a, b and c to it.
    The liability is on the department if they do and have an injury.
    We're not talking about taking parts from a Holmatro cutter and adding it to a TNT cutter. All NFPA certified tools are tested to meet or exceed its normal operating pressures. Each tool and power unit is designed with different pressure switches, different safety valves, different check valves...all designed to protect "itself" from failure. The control valve on the cutter is not designed to protect the spreader or the power unit in a same system. A properly operating spreader cannot damage a properly operating cutter, and a properly operating power unit cannot damage a properly operating cutter. Each component is designed to protect "itself". Although different systems are tested at different pressures, all NFPA 1936 tools are tested to 1.5 times its normal pressure. In other words the Centaur tools at 9140 psi, are tested to exceed TNT tools pressures at 10,500 psi, and vice versa.

    It is true that a NFPA Gensis tool mixed with a NFPA Amkus tool is no longer certified when on the same system. But that is because NFPA only test tools as a set, each manufacturer only supplies their own sets to test.

    Have you ever pulled up to a structure fire, and pumped water from your truck to a mutual aid department? Did you stop to ask if their water hyrdraulics is different than yours? Fluid mechanics is the same whether its water or oil. The pump on your truck has the same relief valve, safety valve, and bypass valves built in it. Extrication manufacturers try to over complicate things to keep you exclusively in their tools. If you don't believe me, ask the engineers who designed the tools.

    FYI - I spent over 20 years specializing in hydraulics, from fire service, to commercial aviation, to tractors. Flow rate does not affect pressure, only speed of force.

    Don't worry I'll take any tools that can cut me out of a car.

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    Well, there is only one thing you can't save an ignorant person from, that is themself.....

    Ignorance is not stupidity, it is lack of knowledge, stupidity is refusal to learn..

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    Just to simplify, I'm looking for information and feedback from anyone using any of these configurations:

    1 - XRT configured for Hurst tools with Hurst tools
    2 - Hurst Octoflow with Hurst tools
    3 - XRT configured correctly for another brand of tools
    4 - Any other PTO driven hydraulic pump that is marketed and configured correctly for another brand of tools

    I understand that if you use a different brand pump then the tools, there may be warrantee issues.

    A comparison of tool performance between the PTO pump and a gas/electric pump would be appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrtrescue10 View Post
    Well, there is only one thing you can't save an ignorant person from, that is themself.....

    Ignorance is not stupidity, it is lack of knowledge, stupidity is refusal to learn..
    hrtrescue10, I gotta admit great come back, but first check with the manufacturers engineers. They will give you answer needed.

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