I recently spoke to a friend of mine who was a New York City Firefighter and Deputy Chief now retired, and I told him about the P.A.T. test I took for the Nokomis volunteer Fire Department a few days ago and he said WOW that is unfair for a man! and we both decided that it would be a good idea to write in detail, what the test consisted of and ask all you guys out there for your professional opinion of the test that I took, so here goes, First off I wore a turnout jacket, air pack, gloves and helmet in Florida at 90 degrees outside and about 100 percent humidity, it was sprinkling a little, and I had been in that gear a good 5 minutes before the test started, the first event was a very oversized tractor tire that was laying on a yellow line and I had to hit that tire with a 8 pound sledgehammer until it crossed the other yellow line which was about 4 feet or so and it took forever to do that, not to mention that every time I looked down at the tire, my helmet fell over my eyes because it was way to big for my head, so the Lieutenant had to keep on stopping me and adjust the helmet to try to make it smaller, next was a ladder that was about 15 feet long and I had to walk across the rungs for balance then I had to pick it up and carry it across the yard and hang it on some hooks on a pole over my head and then take it down and walk it back over to where I got it from, then I had to walk over to the other side of a building and climb up a 40 foot ladder and then back down, then I had to put a hose on my shoulder that was folded up and duct taped together, i think it weighed about 50 pounds or so, and walk up and down the stairs with it on my shoulder 4 times, up and down is one time, I had to do 4 reps, then there was a rolled up hose pack tied to a rope which was on some sort of a pulley or something and I had to pull hand over hand until it reached the top of the firetruck ladder and then hand over hand back down and it must have weighed at least 75 pounds, then there was the hose drag, now here is the really ridiculous part, get this, the hose was a charged line 6 (six) inches thick, it was not coiled up it was layed out on the ground and I was instructed to put it on my shoulder and run with it past the truck, I got it up on my shoulder and tried to run and I couldn't, so I walked as fast and as hard as I could, I got about 80 % of the way there and I fell, my muscles gave out, I got back up and put the hose back on my shoulder and gave it all I had, literally, I was about 10 feet away from completing that event when my body gave out, I passed out, lights out. the only event that was after that was the dummy drag which was 165 pounds from what I was told, and I would have had to drag him 85 feet. I felt really bad about failing that test until I told a few of my retired and much more experienced friends about the test and they told me that it was absolutely and completely unnecessary for all that to have taken place and that it was a very unreasonable expectation, so what do you guys think? I am proud of myself that I made it that far through the test and I honestly think that if I had taken the Sarasota county test I would have passed with flying colors! If anyone has an opinion on this test that I took, I would sure love to hear it!!!
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Thread: rigged P.A.T. test????????
07-23-2007, 05:20 PM #1
rigged P.A.T. test????????
07-23-2007, 08:04 PM #2
First off, I hope you're not a troll.
Secondly, there is no way in hell you were told to drag a 6" charged line.
Third, other than that, sounds like a typical CPAT..
07-23-2007, 09:37 PM #3
Secondly, there is no way in hell you were told to drag a 6" charged line./QUOTE]
What do you mean.......we drag 6" charged line around all the time!
"Too many freaks and not enough circuses!"
07-24-2007, 12:35 AM #4
I am sure that every other candidate had to undergo the same testing procedure...
So...what do I think?
I think you flunked the CPAT."The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
07-24-2007, 01:11 PM #5
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
In My opinion, you should have trained harder. So as you stated in your other post, train harder and go back and do it. The thing with the helmet, you should have made sure it fit before starting the test, and should have gotten a different one if it would not adjust to fit properly. Everything else sounds like it was there to duplicate real fireground operations; Forcible entry, high rise pack, hoisting equipment, ladder carry and climb, advancing a charged hoseline. In your other thread, you mention the hose was maybe 4 inches, and now it has grown to 6 inches. I will tell you for a fact, nobody would ever expect you to drag a charged 5 inch line, nevermind 6? inch. You were probably given a 2.5 inch, and while they are tough to advance, especially while flowing water, they are a normal part of fireground operations.
Instead of trying to get us to agree with you by attempting to make this test sound impossible, train harder and show up prepared. If you put forth the effort, it will happen, it won't happen by complaining to anyone who will listen. We have all been there and done it, some are harder than others, but never impossible when prepared. Good Luck!
07-24-2007, 04:13 PM #6
07-24-2007, 07:26 PM #7
- Join Date
- May 2007
- NYC to NC to NY
im not going to say alot in this topic but there is NO WAY your moving a 5" or a 6" charged... a 5" exerts 1020 lbs per 100' thats 10.2lbs per foot now thats just a 5" imagine a 6"
07-24-2007, 08:07 PM #8
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
- The Mistake On The Lake
I'm with everyone else here, sounds like a typical CPAT. Hopefully I'll be taking one in October for the department i want to get hired by. It was pretty much everything you just said, with the exception of a 6 inch charged line. 2.5 is what they use, just like everyone else. Oh, and were you perchance measuring the hose's circumfrence, and not diameter. a 2.5 inch line across, is much bigger in circumfrence.
07-24-2007, 11:42 PM #9
6" hose? This person is obviously clueless. I'm glad she failed. Obviously she isn't ready for this.Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.
07-25-2007, 09:04 AM #10
well, that test does not look easy, but it does look possible. I just responded to your other thread relating to this thread and if you were able to get that hose up on your shoulder and walk, there is absolutely not one little possible chance it was a 6 inch hose, or a 5 ince hose, or a 4 inch hose. It was a 2.5inch hose. Your more experienced and retired friends would know that if they were there and they were likely trying to be nice. You failed, plain and simple. It was hot, you were likely not properly hydrated and you were not strong enough to complete the tasks.
Take a look at powerlifting and increase your strength and overall conditioning. If you want to do this job, you want to do it well, you don't want to pass out while dragging a hose or a victim or yourself out of the heat. It gets hot, it gets really hot. Learn to deal with it. All this "poor me" will get you nowhere.
07-25-2007, 02:12 PM #11
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Sounds like a typical CPAT to me as well, however she is clueless about the "Charged 6 inch" but shes taking the CPAT to get on a department which will be training her so its understandable that shes clueless... She has taken the first steps to getting a clue.
07-25-2007, 02:22 PM #12
Sounds like my August drill. Except for the 6". We normally use a 1 3/4" charged line in place of the 6".
As for the full gear...it's pretty standard to wear full gear when on a fire scene so there is no issue with that at all."This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
07-25-2007, 03:20 PM #13
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
They took it easy on you by not making you wear FULL turn out gear. You stated you only had your turnout coat, SCBA,gloves, and helmet, NO pants and boots. When we test here they have to wear full set of PPE, not just coats.
I do think you would have made it as far as you did IF you had been required to wear all of your PPE.
And if you have not already learned, men always lie to thier female mates when they are talking about sizes of equipment.
07-25-2007, 04:20 PM #14
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
Does size matter?
Max I am posting this in all of your spin off threads hoping you read this and take a second to digest the information!!
The reason alot of these guys/gals are busting your chops is because you came on here and posted information thats wrong by Fire service definition!!! You may not have known you were doing this but after you were corrected you got a little snippy and started a SH*T storm!
1ST) There is NO WAY you were asked to move a 6 inches hose line per the definition of a hose in the fire service. In the fire service a hose is described by its diameter not its circumference. That being said lets take a look at what the difference is between a hose with a 6 inch circumference and one with a 6 inch diameter.
CAUTION MATH CONTENT!!!!
For ease of calulations I am going to do just a 1 foot section of each hose!
A hose with a circumference of around 6 inches has a diameter of 1.9 inches.
Circumference of a circle = Pie x Diameter } 6 = 3.14 x d solving D = 1.9
In the fire service we use mainly as an attack line 1.75", 2" and 2.5" and although its not really an attack line occationally 3" (diameter I mean). This is not set in stone and some places may have some funky diameters but this is the norm.
Now for some more math since it came out to 1.9" I will round up to 2" hose. Which if you said the hose was around 6" and ment circumference this would make sense and you used a 2" fire hose in your test!!
To get my point across even further I will give you the weight of just the water in the hose at different sizes.
So I wont confuse or hurt anyones faragile minds I will skip the next calulation step and give you the weight of water (just the water not the hose or couplings) in a one foot section different hoses!
1 pound per foot of 1.75" hose
1.4 pounds per foot of 2" hose
2.1 pounds per foot of 2.5" hose
3.1 pounds per foot of 3" hose
Now supply hose!!!
5.4 pounds per foot of 4" hose
8.5 pounds per foot of 5" hose
12.2 pounds per foot of 6" hose
Thats just the weight of the water not counting the hose or couplings. Pulling one of these hoses lets say 100 foot long charged section now the math gets interesting!!!
100 lbs of water in 100 feet of 1.75"
140 lbs of water in 100 feet of 2"
210 lbs of water in 100 feet of 2.5"
310 lbs of water in 100 feet of 3"
540 lbs of water in 100 feet of 4"
850 lbs of water in 100 feet of 5"
1220 lbs of water in 100 feet of 6"
So hopfully you now see the error in your ways and can say OH I ment circumference and the guys will lay off a bit on that aspect.
Second you are getting alot of flack on this forum because you are looking for simpathy for failing a P.A.T.. Not just simpathy! in essence you are accusing other firefighters of rigging the test so you fail!!! Not wise on a fire service forum. You are in charge of your domain no one made you fail you failed yourself, and the blam falls solely on you!!! STOP TRYING TO PASS THE BUCK!!! If you did not know already firefighters HATE!!!!! people who pass the buck on to others. Firefighters live as a team and unfortunitly we can die as a team and we do not need anyone in our service who is not going to take responsability for their own actions.
I dont mean this post to be rude or mean in anyway or to poke fun at you. I mean it simply as informative and as an explination for you as to what you did that made so many people angery!!"Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with the poor timid spirits, who know neither victory nor defeat." FDR
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