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    Default All I can say...

    After reading through many of these posts is BROTHERHOOD MY ***
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Yes, in my career, i havent witnessed much brotherhood. I see a lot here in the FH forums, but in real life...naaa.

    More and more people are just focused on themselves and making money.

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    i think brotherhood is still alive,and specially on fireground,you need it.how do you fight fires if you do not trust your brothers?you can have hard moments with your crew but this is life and changes.

    in France,the guys" work in twos",so it means that you trust your bro.

    now brotherhood has changed,cause some years ago,in France,it was totally different:i grew up in a family of volunteer firefighters and everyone helped everyone for a lot of things:doing some fixing at a house of one of your bro,or helping the family in case of a death......

    just my 2 cents.
    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"

    2 french mottoes in french fire service.

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    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"
    Save or Perish... courage and devotion. In any language, it describes "daJob"

    Too many so called "brothers and sisters" have the BMA, IGM mentality lately. They forget the sacrifices that those who went before them made... some of them with blood, sweat and tears... some of them ending careers and ending lives.

    They forget those who negotiated the contracts, payscales and benefits that they enjoy today.

    They are like Judas... willing to sell their souls to mutts for 30 pieces of silver... whether it be a fancy schmancy title, a chauffeur's position on a rig, bugles and butterbars because they are so far up the administration's arse that if the mutts open up their mouths, they can see daylight.

    They are the doorway dancers, who always have some sort of problem with their equipment, or the skaters, who glide away from anything that resembles committee work.

    Some are here for just the prestige and the T-shirt... or the benefits.

    They complain the most, but do the least...

    They criticize their company officers or their personnel under their command every chance they get, but when they want or need something, they suck up to them more than the entire test facility in a Dyson vacuum cleaner factory.

    On the other hand, there are many who still love the job, and look forward to going to work, despite the adverserial atmosphere of "mutterdom", budget cuts, etc.

    There are those who do the job with little or no fanfare, who tell John and Jane Q. Public to look at the true heroes... those who gave their lives in the line of duty.

    It is up to those who fall in the latter category to mentor the new guys.

    "Each one teach one"
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-25-2007 at 08:14 AM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    There is one thing that Brotherhood in the fire service has thought me: That it is the same as any other brotherhood.

    Yes, we will fight.
    Yes, we will get on each others nerves.
    Yes, at times I will hate your ***, and you will hate mine.

    The thing I have also learned from my personal experience is this also:

    If we are at the House, and we are in a big argument. And I mean the vein on my forehead is sticking out, and you want to punch me in the face kind of argument. And then the tones drop.........

    And we will ride to the call, and I will bust my *** for you, and you will bust your *** for me.

    THAT is what brotherhood means to me. That we will go through fire for each other.

    What it does NOT mean to me is that we will agree with everything we think, and that we will begin and end each shift in a group hug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    After reading through many of these posts is BROTHERHOOD MY ***

    If you base brotherhood on someones opinion on an internet forum than so be it.

    Brotherhood to me is even if I have a disagreement with a fellow firefighter and there is a fire, all of that is put aside and you are willing to sacrifice for the good of the cause.

    Like real brothers do.

    I think to many people put to much into what is said on an internet forum.
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    "Each one teach one"
    Although I have never heard this little saying, it's exactly the way I was taught, and is exactly what I do with the new guys coming up.

    Very well said DCGONZ.

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    I stand by my post.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    I think you hit the nail right on the center when you said that the brotherhood factors have taken a severe plunge in the last decade. People are morons. They first need to stop offending each other, and embrace each other. Tha'ts what i'ts really a matter of... embracing. These morons who come in here and start calling people names and stuff... knock it off, punks!

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    So nobody ever had a fight with their REAL brother?

    And if you had a fight with your REAL brother, does that mean he is no longer your brother?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    After reading through many of these posts is BROTHERHOOD MY ***
    I too have witnessed the underhandedness that is slowly permeating into the Fire Service. While I certainly have no experience in the paid fire service or a department of your size; I have noticed more and more "brothers" talking about each other, doing each other dirty, lying to each other...the list goes on. Now-a-day's I guess it's more of who's your friend and who isn't. Most of the time it comes when several people get together to conspire against one person and often times end up conspiring against each other. I got in shortly after 9/11, and the camaraderie that I witnessed has rapidly dwindled. I'm not just talking about my department or my area either, it seems to be all over. I know that there is still brotherhood in the service; but I think that the cliche about the bad apples spoiling the bunch is going to be true anywhere you go.
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
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    By the way KEEPBACK200FEET, you're so dramatic!

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    ---------------------------------------------

    I'm reading here and understand

    ---------------------------------------------
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky625 View Post
    I think you hit the nail right on the center when you said that the brotherhood factors have taken a severe plunge in the last decade. People are morons. They first need to stop offending each other, and embrace each other. Tha'ts what i'ts really a matter of... embracing. These morons who come in here and start calling people names and stuff... knock it off, punks!
    Especially during hard times ..............
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Group hug time.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Group hug time.
    A group huge will not fix the problem.A few ******** posting on FH need group therapy.There is click that declare's open season on any newbie posting.It more or less a circle of pencil pusher's trying to rule the FH fourm world.I like hanging around just to see who's next.If you disgree in any way with any of self declare royal family the dogs pile on.It really fun to watch it take shape.
    Last edited by coldfront; 07-24-2007 at 11:16 PM.
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    You boys have said it all. I totally agree. Seems like the newer generation doesn't respect that as much as I was taught to.

    I think you are right....group hug!!
    (keep your hands to yourself though)
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    I stand by my post.
    I'm standing with you.
    IAFF

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    Coldfront.

    Sod off back to the top of the page and read the first post again.

    I will stand with my Brothers ta very much.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    They are the doorway dancers
    I will remember this one!

    Thanx Chief.
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


    IACOJ PROUD

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    I hear you all the way on "this" one... it stands out especially clear, that some people need a little common sense. Why? I think much of it, no offense, can be attributed to the NOOB. Stop me if Im wrong, but is it not always the NOOB that has a hard time accepting? Its the noobs that are never open minded and they seem to place people into a box and categorize everything. Sorry, but that doesnt sound very open minded to me...

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    Wink Honesty......

    All I can say Mickey is your not alone on this one......

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    Default Recent Fire Engineering article

    A touch off topic but applicable


    The Real Meaning of Brotherhood

    BY FRED CROSBY

    THE CONCEPT OF BROTHERHOOD IS DEEPLY ROOTED in the common experience of those in the American fire service; yet, from my experience, it seems that few of us remember or fully understand the implications of such a concept.

    My high school English teacher taught us that the strength of the English language is that it is a living and evolving language-the meanings of words evolve within the context in which they are used. Brotherhood may just be one of those evolving words. In the larger world today, brotherhood has come to be a term used by any group sharing a goal, no matter how nefarious the purpose. A simple Google search of the Internet returns more than 10,000 “hits” on the term brotherhood.

    DISTORTING THE CONCEPT?
    Based on discussions I have had with some firefighters, brotherhood is viewed from the perspective of “What are you willing to do for me?” I see it used also as an excuse to avoid personal accountability and duty. Worse, I have even witnessed it being interpreted as a pass to behave badly. It is as if we are expected to forgive any sin and allow any dishonor simply because we are brothers in a cause. The new definition of brotherhood seems to have become, “Anything goes if you are a brother.” It has come to be akin to honor-among-thieves morality.

    Traditionally, brotherhood, as it was taught to me, signified what I was willing to do for my brother. It was a solemn oath to face danger and fear and even give my life, if necessary, for my brother. It was not a matter of receiving but a matter of giving. It was not a matter of avoiding personal accountability. It was a matter of accepting responsibility. It was not a matter of being forgiven any sin. It was a matter of avoiding sin and living up to the standards of honor required to be a member of the brotherhood. There was a stark difference between whether I was liked, or even loved, and my actions. I knew I would always have the love and support of my brothers. I also knew that I would never be allowed to dishonor them by my actions and be allowed to continue in their company. I was required to embrace and live specific values and ethics if I was to have the honor of being a brother. It was never a matter of entitlement based on employment or association.

    The erosion of values and ethics I see in this new definition of brotherhood is personally and professionally insulting to me. Ethics are important. The definition of Transformational Leadership provided by James MacGregor Burns is “... when one or more persons engage with others in such a way that leaders and followers raise one another to higher levels of motivation and morality ....” 1 Subscribing to this concept necessitates that I, as the leader of my department, raise my people to a higher purpose. What better purpose is there than promoting ethical conduct?

    My fire department shares many of the same characteristics as other departments in the nation: We provide an array of services to our communities-fire protection and suppression services, emergency medical emergencies, and hazardous materials response, among others. In short, we are the general safety net for our community.

    We go to people’s sides on the worst days of their lives and try to make it better. That is the essence of our purpose. We visit them at the time they are most vulnerable. They implicitly trust that we will act with honor and in the most ethical manner. When we fail at this task by stealing or lying to those who trust us, we breach the trust that the community grants us by virtue of our positions. We also fail our brothers. We besmirch their good name when we fail to meet the standard.

    There is also a real and practical need for brotherhood within the unique culture of the fire department. We operate in extremely volatile and dangerous environments. It is not being overly dramatic to say that we make decisions that may mean the difference between life and death for our coworkers and ourselves. The job requires that we go where it is inadvisable to go and do what many people would consider foolhardy.

    Such a heavy responsibility necessitates that words take on special meanings. They should not be spoken only; they must be lived. We operate as interdependent teams. There must be a bond between team members if we are to succeed at our tasks. We must be able to count on our team members and place our well-being in their hands. “Duty,” “honor,” and “trust” must be more than just words.

    The military has long understood the importance of the concept of brotherhood or brothers-in-arms. The fire service also has recognized the practicality of the concept as it relates to its mission. It is often said that the devil is in the details. The details in this case are defining a noble meaning of brotherhood and implementing the concept in a way that leads people to a higher purpose. It is a matter of values-based leadership.

    ETHICS AFFECT TRUST
    Ethics and ethical behavior are timeless subjects that are significant for any generation and any leader. That this is especially true in today’s environment is almost undeniable. Opinion polls show that many citizens distrust government and government leaders at almost all levels. It is crucial that leaders in government work diligently to regain that trust, if they are to be effective.

    The public’s level of trust in the fire service was still high in 2001. A November 2001 Gallop opinion poll revealed that more than 90 percent of the participants rated the honesty and ethical standards of firefighters as very high or high.2 In a 2006 poll here in Hanover County, respondents to a survey indicated a level of trust in the fire and EMS services above the national and regional average.3 The trend of general distaste toward government should serve as a warning for public safety services. Response to 9/11 and the sacrifice of 343 brothers at the World Trade Center twin towers bought us the goodwill we enjoy today. It does not serve the memory of those lost in that disaster if we risk squandering the public trust purchased at so high a price.

    There recently has been a troubling trend of unethical behavior among firefighters. A search of periodicals and newspapers within the past six months revealed more than 1,000 news articles in response to the search phrase “firefighter charged.” Reviewing the articles leads to stories of firefighters engaging in all possible social ills: theft, violence, child pornography, and even murder.

    KNOWING WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING
    It is easy to find casual references to brotherhood in the fire service, but there doesn’t seem to be any serious study or understanding of the fraternal model and its ties to the familial organization. Our institutional knowledge tells us we are members of a special brotherhood, yet there is no universal definition of the term. As an industry, we seem to have little real knowledge of the subject. We also have not made the connection between ethics as a component of brotherhood and the larger issue of the social construct as it relates to all of its components.

    Knowing that we are brothers without really understanding what it means is the precise reason the term is so abused. My thoughts on this subject have evolved from a perspective of “they do not have it right” to “none of us really knows what it means” or “how to use this powerful emotional tool for good.” Accordingly, I have defined my model of brotherhood and its use as a tool to teach and instill the component of ethics in our department.

    BROTHERHOOD IN THE FRATERNAL ORGANIZATIONAL CONSTRUCT
    The analogy of the family model and organization appears to go back at least as far as biblical days. The construct of brotherhood was a natural outgrowth of small family units that served as the cornerstone of social interaction into the extended family of society and organizations. Clawson noted “... we can see how the assumptions that underlay kin relationships extended into activities structured by the fraternal association and permeated the entire of our everyday life.”4

    Besides the well-known history of the patriarchal organization of early Christianity, the construct of the fraternal association grew into many different applications. One of the interesting ties found in the concept is how fully the Freemasons and the children of that organization adopted it. The unique classless approach of the Freemasons allowed the concept to be democratized (4, 76) and spread throughout the world. Freemasonry itself started as a labor guild. Masons organized into groups that may be viewed somewhat as our labor unions today. In the context of the Middle Ages, when the group was formed, it was much more, though. The Masons were a social order that not only governed people’s work lives but also had major influences on their personal lives. The unique part of Freemasonry was and is that it is classless in its membership policies. Anyone could join the organization, regardless of his roots. It was and is also a fraternal social organization built on the idea of kin relationships. It is the root of the concept that all members of the organization are brothers in the labor movement.

    More interesting is the connection of Freemasonry to the American fire service. Benjamin Franklin was a Freemason from 1730 throughout his life (4, 113). He was also a pioneer in the American fire service, forming one of the first fire companies on our soil, the Union Fire Company in Philadelphia in 1736 (Independence Hall Association). Many of our founding fathers are reported to have been Freemasons, and many of those same civic-minded individuals laid the foundations of our fire departments. It is little wonder to me that the fire companies were modeled on the same fraternal model of the Freemasons, including the concept of brotherhood and kin ties.

    BROTHERHOOD AS AN HONORABLE MEANS
    A quote I recently read on a door in my daughter’s middle school sums up the core of brotherhood to me: “Loyalty above all else except Honor.” (unknown) This quote encapsulates the dilemma. We are all loyal to our brothers, but how far does this loyalty extend? It is also the key to the traditional (and my) definition of the boundaries of brotherhood. Chief Rick Lasky of the Lewisville (TX) Fire Department puts it best: “Honor is the brotherhood.”5 He defines the meaning of honor in stark and simple terms: “Honor is also preventing anyone from giving your company or department a black eye or doing anything to hurt its reputation.” (5) The Volunteer and Combination Section of the International Association of Fire Chiefs echoes this ideal of honor in its “White Ribbon Report.” The leadership body noted, “The public expects that the members of your organization will be trustworthy and that they will meet higher standards than the general public.”6

    VALUES-BASED MANAGEMENT
    Most writers on fire service issues note that values are teachable. Mike Chiaramonte, a 40-year member and a past chief of the Lynbrook (NY) Fire Department, says: “But we must understand that rookie firefighters are as soft as clay and can easily be molded by their environment.”7 This concept is supported by the view that ethics is a learned social behavior that contains cognitive, affective, and behavioral dimensions.8

    THE UNIVERSAL DEFINITION OF ETHICS
    Ethics and honor have certain universal definitions that have evolved, albeit independently, around the world. Whether the western Christian community or the eastern philosophies defined the construct of the concept, certain basic and universal laws govern an ethical society. C.S. Lewis wrote in The Abolition of Man, “ ... there are certain universal ideas of right and wrong that recur in writings of ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hebrews, Chinese, Norse, Indians, and Greeks, along with Anglo-Saxon and American writings.” (8,19)

    This universal definition is further broken down into six basic laws: The Law of Beneficence, Duty to Family, The Law of Justice, The Law of Good Faith and Veracity, The Law of Mercy, and The Law of Magnanimity. (8, 20-21)

    BROTHERHOOD AS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT
    Inherent in the ideal of brotherhood are the following components:

    Brotherhood is a group of individuals connected by mission. In the fire service, this mission is to serve.
    The group has a history. The history is a shared experience. In the fire service, this is evidenced by many traditions. We have a wealth of significant traditions that enhance the group or team mentality and our value of kinship.
    We have a close physical relationship with each other. We live, eat, sleep, and work from our second home, the firehouse.
    We are together by choice. We have to go through a rigorous process to be chosen for the department. Many of us had to try for years to be hired. In our case, it is often more a vocation than an occupation.
    We have a language that is unique. We speak in gpm, knobs, truckies, and other colloquialisms that are ours only. We have rights and rituals for swearing in, promoting, and even for burying a member.
    We expect loyalty to each other and to the group.
    There is an acceptable and an unacceptable framework of conduct. This framework should include a strong ethics and values system. This specific framework seems most under attack in my view.

    Leaders should address the issues of ethics as a component of brotherhood and the social construct of brotherhood. The leaders of the fire service have not devoted the time and study necessary to fully understand these issue. We have no systems in place to teach, socialize, and reinforce ethical conduct and the fraternal model of familial relationships.

    It’s well past time for fire service leaders to remember that they are still members of the brotherhood. In fact, we play the role of the big brother. It is our shared responsibility to ensure that it is a family that is ethical and worthy of the public’s trust. ●
    Fortune does not change men; it unmasks them.

    The grass ain't greener, the wine ain't sweeter!! Either side of the hill.


    IACOJ PROUD

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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    After reading through many of these posts is BROTHERHOOD MY ***
    And yet... I still believe in OUR Brotherhood after reading some of these posts.
    I appreciate the good discussion that is coming out of my little tantrum.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    Right on there, brother! It will be a cold day in Hell when the NOOB overtakes the brotherhood... not on "my" watch!!

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