1. #1
    BlueLightBill's Avatar
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    Default What's the best method?

    For yelling at someone on the scene that isn't backing you up on a 2 1/2 inch attack line? I had a fire last night, we led off on a structure fire with a 2 1/2, and i had a probie behind me with another fire fighter. I was not only fighting the line, but the probie. I tried to be nice and coach him along, but he wouldn't listen, and I almost fell over cause he didn't have a clue. What do you think? Yell at him or pimp smack someone?

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    Well BluelightBill,

    Maybe an actual fireground isnt the best time to teach somebody how to properly backup the man on the tip. Maybe he was listening but not understanding. Kinda hard for a new guy to learn a new task under emergency situations. How about you rant all you want at home, then when you go back in, try to teach him the proper way with a level head and nobodies azz on the line.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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    Sometimes, the newer guys are in a state of awe when they get a good job and want to watch the show instead of doing what they were taught. I would have probably said something on scene, not freaking out, just as you said, try and coach them along. But, sure as ****, the next day on, or even after we picked up, we would be heading to the training ground for some 2.5 drills. I've had guys like that on a line with me, and for smaller hose, it isn't that bad, but when you're dealing with the 2.5", the backup man is extremely important. Suggest a little drilling on how to properly handle a hoseline, the responsibilities of the back up man, control man, etc.

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    Ill vote for the pimp smack.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
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    I would say, take him aside later and explain what the problem was, what you were trying to tell him and what you would like him to do the next time. Much better than yelling, belittling and still not getting the point or lesson across, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLightBill View Post
    For yelling at someone on the scene that isn't backing you up on a 2 1/2 inch attack line? I had a fire last night, we led off on a structure fire with a 2 1/2, and i had a probie behind me with another fire fighter. I was not only fighting the line, but the probie. I tried to be nice and coach him along, but he wouldn't listen, and I almost fell over cause he didn't have a clue. What do you think? Yell at him or pimp smack someone?
    How about not yelling at someone at the scene? Makes you look like an imbecile, and if done in front of others, makes your entire company look like a bunch of incompetent fools.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

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    The ideal tactic is having the backup guy behind you with the line up tight in his armpit and BOTH hands on it leaning into it holdint it tight to his upper body. Having him face bachwards and lean back into it works better sometimes. Personal preference. Two FF's is the ideal preferred technique, but one ff should be able to handle a 2 1/2" line when its PROPERLY pumped and operating in a stationary position (especially when you get an incapable backup FF). If you have the will, you can move it around by yourself too.

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    Take him out for some hose drills, and let him haul a 2.5 inch hose across an empty parking lot by himself for an hour while flowing water...then he might understand why his job as back-up man on the line was so important.

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    Could always try teaching him instead.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    This happened to me on one of my first fires, so I was the probie. We were on an 1 3/4 and I was trying to direct the stream into the overhead of a garage. My backup man was holding the hose at his chest level, open handed. I simply had him take the nozzle and showed him how to back-up. A little on-the-job training from the probie.

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    I agree with a few here....don't yell at the scene. Show them later....

    But, Eng34....had you as probie done that to a Sr. guy on my crew? Well, lets just say it would have been detrimental to your career advancement!

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    Nothing wrong with some reinforcement on the grounds. Nothing harmful, just remembering the basic training days.

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    But, Eng34....had you as probie done that to a Sr. guy on my crew? Well, lets just say it would have been detrimental to your career advancement!
    I figured this comment was coming. Keep in mind that they guy on the line with me was only senior by a month or two, and it was done in as respectful of a way as possible. Although he was "senior" to me, I had more experience at the time.

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    Show him what needs to be done. Put him on the nozzle and have the back up man slowly ease up a bit, but definately not letting go, so he feels the reaction. Have the back up do this a few times and the kid will see first hand what you were dealing with. Then show him how to be a good back up man. Stationary for exposures, repositioning, and advancing.
    Don't get mad at someone for not knowing how to do something if you never showed them how to do it.
    If after this he still slacks off, just don't leave any marks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    Show him what needs to be done. Put him on the nozzle and have the back up man slowly ease up a bit, but definately not letting go, so he feels the reaction. Have the back up do this a few times and the kid will see first hand what you were dealing with. Then show him how to be a good back up man. Stationary for exposures, repositioning, and advancing.
    Don't get mad at someone for not knowing how to do something if you never showed them how to do it.
    If after this he still slacks off, just don't leave any marks.
    I second this. well put. He just might not now how important the back up man is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFW333 View Post
    Take him out for some hose drills, and let him haul a 2.5 inch hose across an empty parking lot by himself for an hour while flowing water...then he might understand why his job as back-up man on the line was so important.
    thank god for asses like you to pass the knowledge to our future.

    (just so theres no discrepancies, that was a sarcastic statement)
    The good thing about this job is that we have done so much, with so little, for so long that we can do everything with nothing...... which is what is wrong with this job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983 View Post
    Ill vote for the pimp smack.
    Then follow that by saying "CHARLIE MURPHY!!!!!, HA-HA"
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Go put your pussy 2 1/2" lines away kiddies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer343

    By the way KEEPBACK200FEET, you're so dramatic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLightBill View Post
    For yelling at someone on the scene that isn't backing you up on a 2 1/2 inch attack line? I had a fire last night, we led off on a structure fire with a 2 1/2, and i had a probie behind me with another fire fighter. I was not only fighting the line, but the probie. I tried to be nice and coach him along, but he wouldn't listen, and I almost fell over cause he didn't have a clue. What do you think? Yell at him or pimp smack someone?
    Well your not going to like this, but I say the problem was with you. If you are the senior guy and (claim to) know what you are doing, you should have been backing him up and offered instruction, pointers, and encouragement along the way.

    If you think you know so much, give the nozzle to the new guy and teach him. Don't bitch because he doesn't know how to do something that he doesn't have much experience in.
    RK
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Question Um yah.

    Ok so probie was not backing you up at a structure fire, which I take was a surround and Drown? (DEFENSIVE) Any way I agree with the last reply...It's a working fire he's the probie and your the Sr guy. Why not let him take the pipe and you back him and show him hows it's done. As for someone saying the fireground is not the place to learn I disagree very much it's the best way to learn.
    And as for yelling at him, thats crap. Just let him know. However if this is an Interior attack then yah you take the pipe and make him the 3rd guy on the line, But im not to keen on the 2 1/2 as an Interior attack line. It's to bulky

    Last but not least, not to sound like a d!ck.. But if it was a Defensive attack why not just sit on it or have probie kneel on it a few feet back?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLightBill View Post
    For yelling at someone on the scene that isn't backing you up on a 2 1/2 inch attack line? I had a fire last night, we led off on a structure fire with a 2 1/2, and i had a probie behind me with another fire fighter. I was not only fighting the line, but the probie. I tried to be nice and coach him along, but he wouldn't listen, and I almost fell over cause he didn't have a clue. What do you think? Yell at him or pimp smack someone?
    I see the makings of another great senior firefighter to guide our young along.
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    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    This is funny it reminds me of a fire we had. We advanced a 2.5 into a structure and the firefighter we have directly behind the Captain is stronger than bull-juice, but tends to not use his noodle fully! Well the Captain is trying to move the line back to get a better angle and the firefighter is locked dead up his arse and not giving any. I grab him and push him back so I can move in behind to better assist, well as I do that the Captain gives me a right cross sending my helmet across the room, he didn't see the switch and I was the unlucky recipient!! That got us all 2 days of drills on 2.5 with black-out hoods on, we moved that hose so much my knees were bleeding.

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    1) Was it a problem with the backup man, and not the pump operator?

    For some reason, being behind the nozzle you're not always in the best view of how the stream looks. I have seen 2 FFs in my company on a surround & drown struggling to control a line -- 200' of 2.5" with a 1-1/8" tip. I could see the issue and double timed over to the pump operator who was just stuck with a big red truck between him and the fire, and 30 years of Fog operation mode on the brain had defaulted to giving the line the full 150psi Pump Discharge Pressure. Those 2 guys were handling 350gpm+ by themselves with something like 90-100psi on the tip...but struggling and streamed looked poor. An "Oh Shoot" from pump operator and gating back the discharge to 80psi...the 2 FFs where advancing the line by themselves with a much better looking stream.

    2) Your best place to coach someone is from behind them. Like Memphis said, inexperience goes on the nob when you are running short handed and don't have an officer to supervise. Not only are you in a better location to coach the probie, you have a better sense of whether the line is being over pumped, you can take your eyes off the fire to see if you have kinks, and you're in a slightly better position to see what's happening overall.

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    I agree with those that say the senior man should be behind the nozzle, you dont need a ton of experience to pull a bale and point..the senior mans experience should be telling you when to open it up and where...probies are there to learn, but he shouldn't have been let out of the academy without knowing how to help control a handline. That being said he's your partner all shift on and its your responsibility to find out what he knows and doesnt know.

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