1. #1
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    Default Palo Alto FD Insults Memory of the SC 9

    Just found this article here

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...4&sectionId=46


    They cant send their fire trucks to the funerals of firefighters because some dumb *** lawyer and his insurance company runs their city now. But what really ****ed me off is this line, regarding why they were not allowed to lower their flag for the 9 South Carolina FF's that died this year:

    Direct Quote from the city manager
    "We want to honor someone who has fallen in the line of duty, (but) you don't lower the flags willy-nilly."
    9 FIREMEN ****ING DIE AND THEY CALL IT WILLY NILLY!!!!

    He needs to resign or be removed from office immediately IMHO



    PS: I realize the quote is from the City Manager which is hardly an FD position, but my title sticks anyway for this reason:

    This is one of those times where you go against the orders of the *** faced babboon in office and do the right thing. They didnt do that.
    Last edited by DFW333; 08-02-2007 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Title Change...if it even worked

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    Not in any way defending "Mr. Willy Nilly", but the only one that can authorize the flag to be lowered to half-staff is the President or Governor.
    We had the same discussion at our station regarding the Charleston 9.

    The Flag in Mourning
    To place the flag at half staff, hoist it to the peak for an instant and lower it to a position half way between the top and bottom of the staff. The flag is to be raised again to the peak for a moment before it is lowered. On Memorial Day the flag is displayed at half staff until noon and at full staff from noon to sunset.

    The flag is to be flown at half staff in mourning for designated, principal government leaders and upon presidential or gubernatorial order.

    When used to cover a casket, the flag should be placed with the union at the head and over the left shoulder. It should not be lowered into the grave.

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    Default Fire Mourning Flag

    What if there were a nationally accepted Fire Maltese Flag with a Black band across it that could be flown at half staff while the US flag is still at the top?
    That way people would understand that the fire service has suffered a loss without begging politicians to recognize the tragedy as something not "willy nilly"?

    Just my 2 cents.
    Think first and be safe. Your family wants to hold you, not a folded flag.

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    If I read the article correctly, it's Palo Alto that couldn't send trucks for the California LODD memorial or lower the flag for the Charleston tragedy. It says that Menlo Park sent 9 apparatus to the California memorial. If this is the case you might want to change the heading on your post.

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    From the ushistory.org Flag Rules and Regulations

    The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff 30 days from the death of the President or a former President; 10 days from the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. The flag shall be flown at half-staff on Peace Officers Memorial Day, unless that day is also Armed Forces Day.
    The site also gives all of the rules for displaying the American Flag. Too many people don't know the rules and fly the flag improperly. Ever see a flag that is out all night but isn't properly illuminated?


    I have also always had concerns about sending apparatus to parades and such. We have to beg and borrow and plead to get adequate apparatus, then we turn around and send it to the next county for a parade. If we have a call, and it happens, we are without a vital resource. In our case, we have a parade truck that is out of service. But sometimes we send our newest first out vehicle.
    Last edited by HotTrotter; 08-02-2007 at 10:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paets1 View Post
    If I read the article correctly, it's Palo Alto that couldn't send trucks for the California LODD memorial or lower the flag for the Charleston tragedy. It says that Menlo Park sent 9 apparatus to the California memorial. If this is the case you might want to change the heading on your post.
    Ooops....thanks


    Ok....I edited it but it only changed inside this topic. Viewing the forums will still show it as Menlo Park instead of Palo Alto.


    And an apology to the guys in Menlo Park for dragging their name through the mud. Terribly sorry about the confusion.
    Last edited by DFW333; 08-02-2007 at 10:33 AM.

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    Who in the world, other than an uninformed city administrator, would lump sending an apparatus to a LODD funeral into the category "parades and such"??? Absolutely unbelieveable coming from a firefighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paets1 View Post
    Who in the world, other than an uninformed city administrator, would lump sending an apparatus to a LODD funeral into the category "parades and such"??? Absolutely unbelieveable coming from a firefighter.
    I believe you are referring to my comments about sending apparatus out of town for parades. When going to a funeral with apparatus they usually form a parade. Out of town and out of service is the same, regardless of the reason. And before someone jumps on the mutual aid thing, consider this. When our apparatus is out at a mutual aid call we will put neighboring departments on standby and potentially have them station a piece of apparatus in our station.

    I'm not sure whiter I agree or disagree with this, I do question the logic of taking apparatus out of service for other than mechanical failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paets1 View Post
    Who in the world, other than an uninformed city administrator, would lump sending an apparatus to a LODD funeral into the category "parades and such"??? Absolutely unbelieveable coming from a firefighter.
    Who in the world would think it was a good idea to send 9 pieces of apparatus out of town to a memorial service. I don't care who died. One apparatus to represent the FD. Get a van or a bus for the personnel. Mutual aid or not, 9 pieces of apparatus out of town is irresponsible and reckless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Who in the world would think it was a good idea to send 9 pieces of apparatus out of town to a memorial service. I don't care who died. One apparatus to represent the FD. Get a van or a bus for the personnel. Mutual aid or not, 9 pieces of apparatus out of town is irresponsible and reckless.
    I definitely have to agree with George here. One piece and a crew, with maybe a support vehicle should be more than enough. If there are multiple stations such as FDNY or FX CO etc, then maybe one guy from each station (off duty type?) with the sup veh. Otherwise, why would you want to over burden the guys currently on watch with such reduced resources?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Who in the world would think it was a good idea to send 9 pieces of apparatus out of town to a memorial service. I don't care who died. One apparatus to represent the FD. Get a van or a bus for the personnel. Mutual aid or not, 9 pieces of apparatus out of town is irresponsible and reckless.
    I may have read the article wrong, but wasn't only one truck ( and a reserve one at that) sent for the memorial, and the other 8 were providing mutual aid coverage for the affected department during the service? How far apart are these departments, and how big of a department is Menlo Park?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightnPBIArmor View Post
    I may have read the article wrong, but wasn't only one truck ( and a reserve one at that) sent for the memorial, and the other 8 were providing mutual aid coverage for the affected department during the service? How far apart are these departments, and how big of a department is Menlo Park?
    I re-read the article and that is exactly what it says. I was reacting to the post.

    However, it only changes things in my mind a little. Sending seven piees of apparatus out of town for any reason is a susbstantial drain on the FD resources. Although it is not irresponsible and reckless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I re-read the article and that is exactly what it says. I was reacting to the post.

    However, it only changes things in my mind a little. Sending seven piees of apparatus out of town for any reason is a susbstantial drain on the FD resources. Although it is not irresponsible and reckless.
    That is why I asked how far apart these departments were from each other...I know nothing about California, and thought it may have been a similar situation to North Charleston covering for Charleston during their memorial: different jurisdiction, but not really "out of town" if that makes sense...

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    I've reread my post several times now and for the life of me I can't find anywhere in there where I ever said anything at all about it being "a good idea to send 9 pieces of apparatus out of town for a memorial service." I believe the words I used were "an apparatus."

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    Quote Originally Posted by paets1 View Post
    Who in the world, other than an uninformed city administrator, would lump sending an apparatus to a LODD funeral into the category "parades and such"??? Absolutely unbelieveable coming from a firefighter.
    This is the same "Brother" that linked giving away a Dept issued polo to taking the Fire Engine to the local watering hole and hoisting a few.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    This is the same "Brother" that linked giving away a Dept issued polo to taking the Fire Engine to the local watering hole and hoisting a few.....
    Which one was that? George or Malahat. After all, both of them have reservations about sending apparatus out of the coverage area. And just for the record, so do I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Which one was that? George or Malahat. After all, both of them have reservations about sending apparatus out of the coverage area. And just for the record, so do I.
    You.

    If you send a reserve piece out, with a volunteer crew it affects nothing. Have no reserve piece? Second due, or "Fire Engine Pool" with a neighboring dept.
    Or even send a utility vehicle out.
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    Not to speak on behalf of our brothers and sisters in Palo Alto, but to clarify, Menlo coordinated apparatus throughout their County (San Mateo) to send apparatus to Contra Costa for two LODD.

    We all did in the greater bay area to cover their stations. Our dept (Fremont) sent two engines for cover in and one (staffed by off duty personnel) for the procession. Two Contra Costa firefighters died attempting to make a rescue.

    As for flags, I agree, we should have a Firefighters flag with a pole in front of every firehouse, it would be clear when and why that flag is lowered.

    Palo Alto is a good organization and a very good local. They will work this out. I am sure this has not been easy on them.

    As for the title of this Menlo insults memory of SC 9 you are way out of line...read the facts, call Palo Alto Firefighters....go to cpf.org get their contact info..
    Last edited by rmccormick1689; 08-03-2007 at 07:51 AM.
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    I don't believe it was the Palo Alto fire dept that did the insulting. The union took it to city council in an attempt to fight it.

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    rmccormick1689 You are absolutely right about the flag. A firefighters flag is what is required in this situation.. In our case, we drape a black bunting over the sign for the department.

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    What ever is used needs to be nation wide or even world wide. I agree with one flag used only for this.

    Whatever you want to say about lawyers running the city and departments, we (as a nation) did it to ourselves. We are so sue happy that the cities are trying to protect themselves. Now anything that has to be decided on, for example what type of pen is used to record notes, has to go through them.
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