1. #1
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    Default What type of Hydrant Valve do you use?

    We currently run 5" supply line with no hydrant valve. We hook directly up to the steamer or if there is none, we use our "crazy hook-up", which is 2 3" lines into a gate which attaches to our LDH. We have had a few fires in the past couple of months where hydrant pressure is an issue. We forward lay just about all the time. I have been reading the other thread on backstreching and it benifits, but right now the mentality is going to be very hard to change.
    Other departments around us use the Humat valve, but seem to be getting away from that because of friction loss. My question is what are othe departments using and why? I am looking for input from everyone from big cities to the small town USA just to get an idea of different thing out there. Also who lays the line? Does you first due always or is it other companies?

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    We use a Humat valve on all of our engines. We run 4" supply line but also have 3" supply in the bed. The first engine is supposed to drop a line (4"), either at a hydrant, driveway or other convenient location. Our SOP is to drop both 3" and 4" for a commercial building without a FDC. Normally we forward lay. Whether the Humat gets used or not depends on what we need, the length of the lay etc.

    I'm curious about your statement regarding friction loss in the Humat. There wouldn't seem to be too much loss with the valve. If that little friction loss is a problem, it would seem that you need to boost the pressure and the Humat would be needed.

    This link has good info on how a neighboring department uses the Humat.


    http://www.mvfd.com/content/water/humat.cfm

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    The friction loss in the valve was "found" buy another department in our town. The hydrants in there area are low pressue/volume setup. They were taliking to someone who said there was a 10 psi difference with/without the valve. They went out and tried it and found there was a 10psi difference. Now was that only for their hydrants on their system? I am not sure. Right now we run no valve what-so -ever. So the hydrant needs to be pumped, we have to shut it down.

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    Rule of thumb ( thumb has a lot of rules, doesn't he? ) is 10 PSI for the hydrant assist valve, 25 PSI for a master stream appliance (the recruits at the Academy had a lesson in pumping to boost the presure using the HAV today)

    We have Harrington hydrant assist valves on our 4" supply lines, with Harrington "z" valves for inline relay pumping.
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    We dont use any hydrant valves. We only have a few areas where pressure could be a problem (dead end water lines). In these areas, 2nd due reverses back to the hydrant (5" LDH) and pumps the line. If we cant reverse, first due will drop a supply line and forward lay in. The second due will hook the plug and pump to the first. These areas are all pre-planned so we know going in what needs to be done.

    The rest of the area is on a loop system with hydrants every 500', 24" mains down to minimum 6" feeders at the far ends of the loops with excellent pressure. If that wasnt enough, we have plenty of spots that we can draft from.

    Not much need for valves.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 08-03-2007 at 10:10 PM.
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    Rule of thumb ( thumb has a lot of rules, doesn't he? ) is 10 PSI for the hydrant assist valve, 25 PSI for a master stream appliance (the recruits at the Academy had a lesson in pumping to boost the presure using the HAV today)
    I read too much into his statement, I assumed that they found more than about 10 PSI, until I read the response. We all know what happens when you assume.

    I still think that if your pressue is such that a 10 psi loss makes you uncomfortable, you probably need some type of hydrant asisst.

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    In your times where the pressure was an issue where you laying in dry and then having the secnd due pumping to you off the hydrant in relay? That may be a good solution to do that and not use the valve set up. The only issue is the your tank size, 2nd due response time, and the confort of having the first due having a quick sustained source.
    If you have your second due pump the hydrant, have them hook off you 2 1/2" gate valve and send more in the relay by boosting their incoming pressue and volume to increase the out going volume in the relay

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    Curent department uses no valaves. On the hydrants that have a steamer connection, we connect the 4" directly to the steamer and put a hydrant gate on one (1) of the 2.5" discharges.

    On the hydrants that have two (2) 2.5" discharges and no steamers, which represents most of our hydrants, we use a 2.5" - 4" storz adapter on one discharge (which is where the 4" connects) and a hydrant gate on the other.

    On the "baby" single 2.5" discharge hydrants, which we have quite a few of, we generally don't make 4" connections as flows are not worth laying a line unless we are fairly close. We will usually use a tanker shuttle in these areas, and nay lay a3" from the hydrant to provide a little extra water.

    On my last department, we used a 4-way valve as flows in most areas were pretty robust but pressures were generally below 30 psi, and sometimes as low as 15 psi. First due engine would lay in, connect, and begin flow. 2nd due would take hydrant and pump.

    First in could also go direct. 2nd due would stop at first due, empty it's tank water, then reverse lay to the hysrant beyond the fire, and would still use the 4-way valve. This gave us the ability to continue water flow to the attack engine if the engine at the hydrant broke down. Another engine could simply be swapped in without interruption of the water supply.

    Another advantage to this setup is if the hydrant craps out, we still had 1000 gallons of water on board the engine at the hydrant to use as an emergency supply.

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    We most often do forward lays. We don't use any hydrant valves for our LDH. We use a NST to Storz adapter on our 5" and we also put a ball valve on the 2.5" nipple. In our hydrant bag we also carry a 2.5" to 5" storz adapter if it is needed.

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    No Valves here, just a 4 1/2 to Storz adapter.

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    We connect directly to the hydrant with 5" with a 2 1/2" gate on one of the other outlets. Most of our hydrants have good pressure. No need to pump them. The gate valve also allows for easier draining of the LDH. The hose always seems to run uphill from the hydrant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFD9427 View Post
    We currently run 5" supply line with no hydrant valve. We hook directly up to the steamer or if there is none, we use our "crazy hook-up", which is 2 3" lines into a gate which attaches to our LDH. We have had a few fires in the past couple of months where hydrant pressure is an issue. We forward lay just about all the time. I have been reading the other thread on backstreching and it benifits, but right now the mentality is going to be very hard to change.
    Other departments around us use the Humat valve, but seem to be getting away from that because of friction loss. My question is what are othe departments using and why? I am looking for input from everyone from big cities to the small town USA just to get an idea of different thing out there. Also who lays the line? Does you first due always or is it other companies?
    Remember, the valve will add varying amount of friction loss before being boosted depending on the flow you are looking for. Also important to remember that as you demand more flow before a hydrant is boosted, the pressure that water comes to you drops, thereby limiting the distance the desired flow can go before a relay pumper hoooks in.

    The MAJOR advantage of any type of hydrant valve is that you can get water fast if you foward lay and another engine isnt arriving before you blow your tankwater. You may not get master stream flows until it is boosted, but you'll have water, and when that next engine gets there there is no shutdown.

    The other hardly known fact is that both hydrassist and Humat valves will automatically revert to hydrant flow of the booster engine fails in any way. NO user intervention is required.
    Last edited by MG3610; 08-05-2007 at 11:25 PM.

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    On my previous department, we used a Jaffery 4-Way Valve. While I don't beleive it had the features you described with the Humat and HydraAssist, I beleive at any one time only about 50% of the water was being diverted to the engine. If the engine failed, most of the water would end up reverting back to free-flow, so the supply might be slightly reduced but never lost.

    Another advanatge to using 4-Way valves is that they can be set-up in a relay, and water can flow before any engines are connected.

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    I'm about to perform some flow testing of the Akron brand 4-way hydrant valve, and the Humat. Both are on loan to my Dept for demo testing.

    Does anyone know what brand this is??
    Name:  reara1.jpg
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    EDIT - Found it - Harrington LDH Hydrant Valve, Model H700
    Last edited by txgp17; 11-29-2008 at 10:33 AM.
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    It's called a Hydra-Assist Valve. Off the top of my head, I can't remember the manufacturer, although every one of my engines has one.... The picture that you have definitely isn't the Humat.
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    5" supply line here, through a HUMAT with the high-capacity necks/storz adapters.
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    Our hydrant valve is a 1999 model E-One 1500 gmp triple combination pumper.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 11-29-2008 at 12:10 PM.
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    Bob, Good Point. We do not use Hydrant Valves or LDH, And we Never (Yes, I said Never) flow a supply line directly off a Hydrant, we Always (Yes, I said Always) have a pumper on the Plug. Our Hydrants range up to 120 PSI Static, then flow 1,000 GPM @ 90 PSI, In some areas, Pressures/Volumes can be lower, but overall, we have an excellent system. Our S.O.P. calls for the First Engine to Lay one or two 3 inch Supply Lines to the Fire, and the Second Engine pumps the Hydrant. Third Engine lays in, using a different Hydrant, and the Fourth Engine pumps the Second Hydrant. A Box Alarm goes on every Structure Fire, and the assignment is 4 Engines, 2 Trucks, and a Heavy Rescue.
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