Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42
  1. #1
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Western New York
    Posts
    35

    Question Tanker Requirements

    I've heard a lot of talk on what are the requirements for building a tanker and having it meet NFPA, like minimum equipment, having two SCBA's with spare bottles. Baring purchasing the NFPA 1901 Apparatus Guide, what are pump requirements on a tanker. And are FEMA's requirements different than NFPA. I've heard 750 GPM is the maximum.

    If the truck exceeds the NFPA requirements then it meets them. Does FEMA/AFG care or does the entire scope of the project change and is now different than what we were awarded for?


  2. #2
    FH Mag/.com Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    The 750gpm limit was their line for what was a pumper and what was a tanker. So 500gpm/2000gal is a tanker, 750+gpm/2000gal is a pumper. If you are awarded you can always buy more than you applied for if you have the money for it after competitive bidding. So if all you want is a 500gpm/2000gal and someone says they can build you a 1000gpm/2500gal for the price you have, then upgrade. Buying more than requested for the same money is always encouraged.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Northern NY
    Posts
    188

    Cool BC79er, aren't they out of scope here??

    Brian, I like your logic and it does meet NFPA, but, it sounds like a loophole that DHS would want to plug. In 2004, we were awarded a tanker. We bought a pumper/tanker 1500gpm, 1800 gallon truck. At the time, DHS defined a tanker based on water >1250 gallons. This is know a pumper per the new definition, pump >750 gpm regardless of water. So, are you saying we can apply for a tanker again since we once again don't have a tanker? Wouldn't the same scenario apply with HDFireball1? If he wanted a pumper/tanker, he should have applied for a pumper not a tanker? His application probably said he had an old tanker or no tanker per the DHS definitions and was scored on this not his newest pumper. Just curious because a lot of tanker awards are out there and this could be one of those issues??

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Western New York
    Posts
    35

    Default

    Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. We applied for a tanker based on our current situation and needs. I understanding that getting more should not be a problem. But if getting more puts us in to another category IE. Pumper, when we applied for a tanker does it make us now outside the scope of our grant project? This is and was NOT our intention but I want to make sure we are playing by the rules.

    It's almost the same as saying we applied for PPE and then if awarded we purchase a TIC. It changes the scope of our grant proposal.

    Sounds like Fighting41NY did the same thing in '04. They upgraded.

    My other dilemma is sounds like DHS classifies apparatus differently than NFPA. Whatís with that if the truck needs to be built to NFPA specs?

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    You're a little different than your comparison of applying for PPE and getting a TIC. If you get your tanker and make it a pumper/tanker, you're still meeting what you were trying to do with your tanker. You're just adding the ability to be a pumper. It would be more like getting a PPE grant and having enought to buy your helmets with a TIC mounted on it. It's still functioning the way you reqeusted (head protection), it just does some more now.

    I did the same thing in '05; got a tanker, built a pumper/tanker. The only thing is there's a lot more equipment I had to put on it when we did it.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Program guidance states "We consider tankers or water-tenders to be firefighting vehicles with a carrying capacity of 1,000 gallons or more and with pumping capacity of less than 750 gpm. A firefighting vehicle with a carrying capacity of more than 1,000 gallons and pumping capacity of more than 750 gpm will be considered to be a pumper under AFG.

    Guidance also states "Applicants will not be allowed to modify the scope of work of a vehicle award (i.e., change the type of vehicle to be purchased after the application is submitted)."

    Sounds to me like you need to stay in the parameters set forth for a tanker/tender.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Alum Bank, PA
    Posts
    580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    The 750gpm limit was their line for what was a pumper and what was a tanker. So 500gpm/2000gal is a tanker, 750+gpm/2000gal is a pumper. If you are awarded you can always buy more than you applied for if you have the money for it after competitive bidding. So if all you want is a 500gpm/2000gal and someone says they can build you a 1000gpm/2500gal for the price you have, then upgrade. Buying more than requested for the same money is always encouraged.
    I hate to disagree with you Brian, but what you are saying here is wrong. If you put a pump larger than 750gpm, you changed your program. They will not allow this!! Your final purchase would be a pumper instead of a tanker.

    Kelly

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    Catch22 on this. For 07 Grant app our objective was purchase of a water supply rig, big tank with large pump and CAFS. A CAFS tanker pumper but among the options for type of truck you might chose : were tanker, pumper, CAFS pumper. I selected CAFS pumper as did not want to get in this problem of GPM. Then in the narritive I discussed why we need the big tank. Replacing a 2600gal homebuilt tanker and a non-operational supply pumper etc.

    We get the questions but reduce the project to $200,000. After thee weeks today DHS rep finally calls me and they did in fact keep classified as CAFS pumper with $200,000 cap. Does not meet our performance objectives as discusseed (and approved in peer review) so will continue with appeal process.

    But now I have to do some more research on what that a beer budget CAFS pumper runs. Buy one for $200K? I doubt it. My guess is a Pierce Contender or competitor with 1250gpm, 1000gal and CAFS will run $225 min. Then add on bigger chassis, longer body, bigger tank, rear mount pump and back to my start estimate.

    Anyone have a current price?

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    4,249

    Default

    LVFD needs to jump in on this one. He got a CAFS rig the same year I got our pumper/tanker. Not sure what it ran him or the exact specs, but I'm sure he's got some insight.

    Might even be able to find some old posts of his about the truck. I think he was playing with it when I called him the other night.

  10. #10
    FH Mag/.com Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    Folks, the scope change they are talking about involves changing to SMALLER specs. So if you are awarded for a tanker then you can't buy a pumper, or a quint, or a brush truck. But you can put on CAFS and a bigger pump as long as it still has the water capacity that you asked for since that was the primary purpose of the application.

    Adding something 750gpm to a tanker makes it a pumper in DHS's view ONLY AT APPLICATION TIME. If you can buy more truck at AWARD time than you expected then you are fully expected to do so. Already been dealing with this issue this year, checked with FPS-like people and everything. Check with your local FPS also, but I will be very surprised if they give a different answer since I've already gotten the one I posted earlier from more than a handful as well as the folks in DC. I don't make things up as I go along, I check with the authorities before I give advice in here. Professional integrity is job #1.

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    197

    Default

    Here's the deal guys.....if you applied for a tanker, with a 500 gpm pump and 2500 tank, and were successful in getting a grant for said vehicle, you can upgrade the pump to anything larger as long as you keep the 2500 gallon tank. The DHS people will approve the larger pump size with no hesitation as long as you still deliver the 2500 gallons to the fire scene. If you can get a larger pump, i.e 1000 gpm, for the same price, why wouldn't you... its a no brainer...been there done that.......

    if you asked for a camaro and found out you could get a porsche for the same price would you do it? of course, and you still got the sportscar....

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber CordovaFire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Cordova, AL
    Posts
    175

    Default

    Guys, this discussion could go on forever. The best thing to do is discuss your change with DHS. Let them know what you want to do and get their "permission" so to speak. They are not likely to decline what you want as long as you have the same general scope of the project. Especially if you make your change by adding additional funds from your end to make it happen. And remember to get it in writting. If you speak to them on the phone get them to email you their answer, get "everything in writting" -- CYA. We had a simular delima. As long as you are paying for the upgrade with your money and not any of theirs they should be OK with it. More or less you build a tanker with their funding and your match. Then you can add more of your funding to upgrade the vehicle if needed. But all is done with their permission first.

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Alum Bank, PA
    Posts
    580

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Folks, the scope change they are talking about involves changing to SMALLER specs. So if you are awarded for a tanker then you can't buy a pumper, or a quint, or a brush truck. But you can put on CAFS and a bigger pump as long as it still has the water capacity that you asked for since that was the primary purpose of the application.

    Adding something 750gpm to a tanker makes it a pumper in DHS's view ONLY AT APPLICATION TIME. If you can buy more truck at AWARD time than you expected then you are fully expected to do so. Already been dealing with this issue this year, checked with FPS-like people and everything. Check with your local FPS also, but I will be very surprised if they give a different answer since I've already gotten the one I posted earlier from more than a handful as well as the folks in DC. I don't make things up as I go along, I check with the authorities before I give advice in here. Professional integrity is job #1.

    I beleive you guys are playing with fire here. I placed in our application that we would have a 750gpm pump. Before they would make the award, this email was sent:

    " I apologize, but I have one more thing I need to verify with you. Do
    you confirm that this request is for a tanker and that it will not have a
    pump that has a capacity in excess of 750 gpm?"

    This email was sent after the questions were returned and the reduction letter was accepted. Obviously I confirmed that the pump would not be larger than 750gpm. Kurt, what are your thoughts on this????

    Kelly

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by imafireman View Post
    I beleive you guys are playing with fire here. I placed in our application that we would have a 750gpm pump. Before they would make the award, this email was sent:

    " I apologize, but I have one more thing I need to verify with you. Do
    you confirm that this request is for a tanker and that it will not have a
    pump that has a capacity in excess of 750 gpm?"

    This email was sent after the questions were returned and the reduction letter was accepted. Obviously I confirmed that the pump would not be larger than 750gpm. Kurt, what are your thoughts on this????

    Kelly

    bc79er , not intentionally tyring to disagree with you here but I think you and I are getting conflicting stories here from DHS. See below email exchange with Tom Harrington from severl weeks ago ref imafireman award on his tanker application:

    Question: I have a client who received an award for a 3000 tanker with 750 gpm pump.

    They are getting bid specs now on the tanker and have been informed that they can place a 1250 gpm pump on the tanker for the same price as a 750gpm pump ( apparently the only difference is that the 1250 has two discharge lines instead of one). The client stated that one of the specific questions he had to answer for his FPS was assuring that the tanker had a 750 gpm pump on it.



    Is there some prohibition from deviating upwards here to the 1250 gpm pump on this tanker? I was under the impression that DHS did not care about an upwards deviation as long as the minimum capabilities were obtained IE 2500 gal tank requested and 3000 gal tank ordered at same price. Am I missing something here?


    Answer: Our program guidance (using NFPA specs) define pumpers as anything with a pump in excess of 750 gpm - regardless of water capacity. Anything with more than 1,000 gallons of water and a pump of 750 or less is considered a tanker. Placing a larger pump on the vehicle is technically changing the type of vehicle being purchased (bait-and-switch). That's a no-no.


    Kelly, we have asked and had your question answered at the highest level of AFG. I would error on the side of caution here and follow what we have been told.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Alum Bank, PA
    Posts
    580

    Default

    Thank you Kurt. All of the specs have been changed to the 750 gpm and we are proceeding as planned.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Northern NY
    Posts
    188

    Talking Here's a funny

    We got our tanker award in 2004. Back in 2004 a tanker/pumper had to just have >1,200 gallons of water, regardless of pump size. We put a 1500 gpm pump on it.

    Per the new rules, it's now a pumper.

    I guess we can apply next year for another tanker and get great odd's since we don't have a tanker. I wonder how I would explain the previous tanker award that's now a pumper?

    Got the LDH award today, ROUND 3!!!!

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    Today finally got the right guy at Fire Grant regarding our "appeal" of the reduction in our project. Also asked him about this tanker issue. He told me that if applied for a tanker and you install a larger than 750gpm pump it is no longer a tanker, and a problem. They are strickly going what is in NFPA 1901.

    And as silly as some of the 1901 stuff is for rural FD that is the "rules"/"law" Perhaps time to get involved in the 1901 so a pumper has a REAL tank on it and a pumper tanker has a REAL pump. A city/1901 pumper (IE: tiny tank) is only of marginal use in rural area in my view.
    Last edited by neiowa; 08-10-2007 at 11:02 PM.

  18. #18
    FH Mag/.com Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    Glad to see everyone at DHS is "agreeing" to adhere to NFPA on vehicles but we can ignore NFPA on SCBA and some other equipment. Nothing like consisitency. Especially since I already have a handful of vehicle award winners from earlier rounds that were given permission to increase pump size past 750gpm on "tankers". Good thing it's in writing for them, you never know when there's a change in horses mid-stream...

    And since NFPA 1901 doesn't have any maximum pump size on the tanker definition, exactly what standard is DHS following? NFPA allows hybrids and DHS doesn't want to fully acknowledge NFPA 1901, so what's a person to do? Looks like there will be some discussions before next year's PG gets done.

  19. #19
    FH Mag/.com Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    Oh, and I wonder why people are being allowed to increase tank size on pumper awards to over 1250gal but that doesn't make them a tanker. Hmmm.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Western New York
    Posts
    35

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er View Post
    Oh, and I wonder why people are being allowed to increase tank size on pumper awards to over 1250gal but that doesn't make them a tanker. Hmmm.

    Good Point! I'm also sure some discussion will happen before the next PG. Where do you draw the line? Some changes should be allowed especially when the 'upgrade' doesn't cost the project anymore but how do you stop the changes the effect the proposed project? (If I made sense of that).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. World Of Fire Report: 01-16-06
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-23-2006, 10:08 PM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 10-21-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-24-2005, 07:34 AM
  3. Tanker Debate in Coal Country!
    By coldfront in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-18-2005, 10:50 PM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 10-04-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-12-2005, 07:28 AM
  5. World Of Fire Report: 03-26-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-29-2005, 09:54 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts