Thread: overhaul PPE

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    Default overhaul PPE

    Hey guys i need some input from you all, please be nice! :-p (yea right). at my dept we don't wear coats and some times not even helmets on overhaul. i was thinking about wild land firefighting coats to use on overhaul? i know its not as good as a bunker coat. but its something where as you would wear nothing.

    what does your departments require you to wear on overhaul?

    What do you ACTUALLY wear on over haul?

    what do you need to wear in order to be covered under your insurance in case you are injured?

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    Hmmm..

    What do you do when you overhaul?

    Oh yeah, that's right.. rip down walls and ceilings looking for hidden fire.

    What holds up walls and ceilings, and what can be found in walls and ceilings?

    Drywall screws, nails, wiring, smouldering insulation and ..."fire".

    Don't be an idiot!

    Wear your PPE! You want to waer wildland gear? go join Smokey the Bear's FD.

    I know the complaint.. it's too "hot"...

    Cowboy up, bucko.. a little discomfort when overhauling beats being in the burn ward anyday!

    PS: I am being nice.. you should see me when I am PO'd!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    I agree, we wear full ppe until outside the building and not working. This includes SCBA as a lot of older buildings still contain asbestos, lead paint and other substances. I agree with cheif Gonzo, for a bit of discomfort its better to be safe,

    Keep safe

    Alex

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    when they do overhaul,here,guys and gals have to wear full PPE.if someone does not wear PPE,he will stay outside and not help the others.just safety for firefighters to wear PPE,i think.
    "sauver ou périr"

    "courage et dévouement"

    2 french mottoes in french fire service.

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    i wear full PPE when i go in, but outside just a helmet and bunker pants.


    The rules are there to wear full ppe just no one follows it.

    I've just been thinking about it because we got a structure fire the other day and it got pretty hairy during overhaul, i just think the guys would wear the wildland gear more often if that was an option.

    again, a wild land coat would be better then just wearing a t-shirt wouldn't it?

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    btw... on that structure fire, the house was still involved and we went in with no scba.... i looked at the guy and was like.. are you a dumb*****? and just fed him hose at the doorway.(that guy was on a diffrent department)

    redneck firefighting i guess....

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirbyPB View Post
    btw... on that structure fire, the house was still involved and we went in with no scba.... i looked at the guy and was like.. are you a dumb*****? and just fed him hose at the doorway.(that guy was on a diffrent department)

    redneck firefighting i guess....
    If you went into an involved house with no SCBA.. you, pal, are the dum bass.

    Redneck firefigbting?

    I call it an embarassment to the fire service.

    I'm sure we will see you on www.firefighterclosecalls.com
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Depending on the weather and the situation, we at times, do overhaul in bunker pants and helmets.

    100 plus degrees. Humidity often in the 80-90% range during the summer. Very limited mutual aid resources. Often command will decide that less gear is better than folks dropping from heat related injuries? Is it the best way? No, but given the very limited set olf options we have, it is done and we have yet to expereince any significant problems as a result of it.

    Would it be ok in my last department up north where heat and humidity wasn't a major issue and mutual aid resources were close and plentiful? No.
    But here the conditions and situation is far different, and sometimes you have to be willing to adjust your thinking a bit for the local conditions.

    We do the same thing on extended MVA operations at times as well. The IC may not require any gear for personnel working outside of the extrication zone, and may allow those in the zone to work in bunkers, helmets and gloves in extreme heat, such as what we have faced for the past 10 days and are expected to deal with for at least the next 10.

    Brush fires are the same case.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-11-2007 at 09:49 AM.

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    hey gonzo, i didnt go in. i just fed him hose. i thought he was a dumbass. So don't call me the dumb *****.


    LaFireEducator

    yea, thats how it is out here, its 100 degree weather. not a lot of help.
    Last edited by KirbyPB; 08-11-2007 at 09:50 AM.

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    As a general rule, wear the full gear and scba when doing overhaul.

    Do you always need the scba? No.

    Do you always have to wear full gear when it's 100 degrees and the risk is extremely low? No.

    Depends on the situation. Most situations require full gear. Nothing less.

    I hear from my guys that " it's easier without all that gear on."

    My reply: This is the fire service. If something is easy, you're probably doing it wrong.

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    During a fire two years back, we responded m/a on the 2nd alarm to a 2 story commercial job, nighttime, 92 degrees and nearly 95% humidity at 2:30 a.m. In the overhaul stages I was leading my company and we had 2 other companies inside. We stepped out of the room and another crew went to work, pulling cielings and walls. Unbeknownst to us, the MPO shut the line down.... (i could have killed him) as they pulled the walls, it flared up and nearly flashed in the room because of no water in the line (it was still stiff according to the nozzle team until they opened it up). over course the nozzle team was bewilled and stayed in the doorway and thus prevented the overhaulers from exiting. Finally, after everyone bailed out of the room we got the back up line into the fire area and put it out.

    Wear the gear, also still committ a back up line to that attack/overhaul line. For the PO's out there.. tell and confirm with the nozzle teams when you are shutting off a line.

    There were more issues, but I care not to discuss them all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Hmmm..

    What do you do when you overhaul?

    Oh yeah, that's right.. rip down walls and ceilings looking for hidden fire.

    What holds up walls and ceilings, and what can be found in walls and ceilings?

    Drywall screws, nails, wiring, smouldering insulation and ..."fire".

    Don't be an idiot!

    Wear your PPE! You want to waer wildland gear? go join Smokey the Bear's FD.

    I know the complaint.. it's too "hot"...

    Cowboy up, bucko.. a little discomfort when overhauling beats being in the burn ward anyday!

    PS: I am being nice.. you should see me when I am PO'd!
    Pretty good post, although it lacks professionalism. You don't need to resort to degrading comments to make the point. Shame on you.

    But yes, you should be wearing full PPE as well as SCBA until the fire is completely out. You never know when there will be a flare up or collapse or falling debris.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Pretty good post, although it lacks professionalism. You don't need to resort to degrading comments to make the point. Shame on you.

    Who appointed you the moral compass of the forums?

    I may have just prevented another IOD or LODD.

    Sometimes, you have to be a subtle as a sledgehammer to get your point across.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirbyPB View Post
    hey gonzo, i didnt go in. i just fed him hose. i thought he was a dumbass. So don't call me the dumb *****.
    I wonder why he thought you went in? Maybe it was because you said you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by KirbyPB View Post
    btw... on that structure fire, the house was still involved and we went in with no scba.... i looked at the guy and was like.. are you a dumb*****? and just fed him hose at the doorway.(that guy was on a diffrent department)

    redneck firefighting i guess....
    Steve Gallagher
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    If you went into an involved house with no SCBA.. you, pal, are the dum bass.

    Redneck firefigbting?

    I call it an embarassment to the fire service.

    I'm sure we will see you on www.firefighterclosecalls.com
    That's what I try to drill into some of these guys around here....but like Chief Goldfeder says..."They just don't get it.".
    Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Go put your pussy 2 1/2" lines away kiddies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer343

    By the way KEEPBACK200FEET, you're so dramatic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    If you went into an involved house with no SCBA.. you, pal, are the dum bass.
    Quote Originally Posted by KirbyPB
    hey gonzo, i didnt go in. i just fed him hose. i thought he was a dumbass. So don't call me the dumb *****.
    he didnt directly call you one. he just said IF you went in then you are a dum bass
    First in, Last out, nobody left behind.....

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    I live in Florida, the breeding ground of hot and humidity. We wear full PPE while overhauling, and have SCBA on our back while overhauling.
    The key is enough resources, and proper Rehab. Rehab and EMS have a MAJOR role at every fireground. You go on air, you come out, you go to rehab. One water, and one gatorade bottle later, you can leave the bus, and go to staging. Then you get picked, and the cycle returns. If your vitals are elevated for a significant period of time, you stay in rehab until they return to normal, or you are done playing.

    While Chief Gonz comes across as a hardass, he is doing it for YOUR benefit. Full PPE, with an SCBA at all times. Gonna be going interior fighting it? Wear your daggum gear!
    The city/town/township/county/state govt you work for paid for it to be USED, not sitting in the apparatus!
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    When overhauling, you should also look at the non-immdiate effects. That smoke your breathing and the soot you get on your skin is full of carcinogens. Your breathing it in and absorbing them through your skin. I would rather be a little less comftorable now instead of increasing my chances of cancer in the future.

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    Posted by BLSboy
    While Chief Gonz comes across as a hardass, he is doing it for YOUR benefit. Full PPE, with an SCBA at all times. Gonna be going interior fighting it? Wear your daggum gear!
    The city/town/township/county/state govt you work for paid for it to be USED, not sitting in the apparatus!
    ME? A hardass? I'm a sweetheart!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Full PPE and SCBA untill overhaul is completed. We ensure we have enough crews to rotate people so they don't get heat stress, and Australia gets very hot.

    I notice some departments over here are now wearing the P2 dust masks during salvage operations, still not sure on that. I guess its a good idea considering all the crap we come across.

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    You should wear full gear during overhaul, and we are even thinking about using SCBA for now on. You’re checking for fire extension and hot spots. Plus you’re still running the risk of collapse and the fire rekindling. What’s going to happen when you’re up in there with no helmet or gear and the fire flairs back up, or when you’re pulling the ceiling down you take a shot to the head. Why take the risk?

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    The key to this discussion is available manpower for relief and rotation.

    In the areas/departments I have served with before coming to Louisiana, mutual aid resources were close and plentiful. However, this is not the case here. The closest mutual aid department is about 15 minutes away, with very limited available manpower, especially daytime. Beyond that we are looking at 30 minutes plus for all of our other options, and those departments can also provide very limited manpower.

    There are evening fires where we will pull 25-30 of our own members. In those situations, even in the extreme heat, rotating fatigued crews and overhauling in full bunkers is not an issue. Daytime or shorthanded responses are another issue where we have to weigh the fatigue factor on the limited crew, even with mutual aid, and the heat stress factors vs. overall firefighter safety. There are times when it is determined by the IC that overhauling w/o a coat is less of a risk than overhauling w/ a coat and dealing with the heat-related issues.

    It is important to note that if we are overhauling in a situation where burns from embers are considered to be an issue by the IC or the interior sector officer/senior firefighter, we will overhaul in full PPE even with low manpower and/or high heat conditions. Also full PPE and SCBA is required in enviroments where the CO2 level exceeds 30 PPM.

    It comes down to balancing the risks envolved in summer weather situations.

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    IMO and by my departments protocols, full bunkers including SCBA are required during overhall. The overhall satge is when most of the deadly fumes and such are more easliy inhaled as they are no longer being burned up by the fire.
    "You choose to go voluntarily into the fire. The blaze might well destroy you. But if you survive, every blow of the hammer will serve to shape your being. Every drop of water wrung from you will temper and strengthen your soul." Margaret Weis


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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Who appointed you the moral compass of the forums?

    I may have just prevented another IOD or LODD.

    Sometimes, you have to be a subtle as a sledgehammer to get your point across.
    Not really the moral compass, just offering up some constructive criticism. It’s all about how you are perceived, and belittling people has the effect of making you look less professional. You never hear doctors, lawyers, or educators belittling people.

    You should bring out the sledge hammer after the 12th attempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotTrotter View Post
    Not really the moral compass, just offering up some constructive criticism. It’s all about how you are perceived, and belittling people has the effect of making you look less professional. You never hear doctors, lawyers, or educators belittling people.
    Wanna bet?

    6 years of Catholic schools with nuns as tough as Marine Corps DI's, then 6 years in Public schools, then college, having been on the stand in depositions as well as being a juror in a few trials ands spending more time in hospital ER's as both a Firefighter/EMT and as a patient, I have heard plenty of "belittling"; some of it unnecessary, some of it balls on accurate and necessary.

    Trotter, we are in a profession that deals with life threatening situations daily, whether it be fires, mva's, EMS, tech rescue or hazmat.

    As a Chief officer, I know my personnel's capabilites, and if I see something wrong or someone disobeying an order, I will read the offender riot act and chew them a new orifice... in private. If they do well, I recognize them for a job well done.

    I have a deal with my personnel.. they make me look good.. and I make sure they go home to their families at the end of the duty tour. If I have to step on a few toes and bruise a few egos, so be it. They may get mad, then they get over it.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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