1. #1
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    Default 2000 vs. 3000 gallon tanker

    I am looking for some advise as to the pros and cons of a 2000gallon and 3000gallon tanker.

    Pretty much know
    kenworth chassis 330 for 2000, 360 for 3000
    pump 500gpm

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    Default Single versus Tandom

    You can get some builders to build a 2000 gallon on a single rear axel - anything bigger will be a tandom. With side dumps, would go with 3000 gallons. Without side dumps, tandoms and their turning radius become a issue when trying to dump and run. We were limited to 2500 gallons due to height/length restrictions of our station.

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    Check your bridge weight limits. You can put 2500gal on a single axle if your bridges can handle it. You can go 52k GVWR on a single axle
    If you need 3000gal there is nothing left of building anyway.

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    Why not buy a 1000 gallon tank and use the money that would be spent for the other 2K and buy a CAFS system? Extend that 1000K of water!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    great suggestion. 1000gal with CAFS will knock down a LOT of fire.
    Can you get a cafs system on a tanker? it would add a lot of $$$

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    If you need 3000gal there is nothing left of building anyway.

    Do tell?? You're just tired and ready to go home after using up your 500gal? All of us working tanker shuttle/LDH lay are wasting our time?

    Perhaps you might have some exposures to attend to?
    Last edited by neiowa; 08-17-2007 at 04:54 PM.

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    Right now we need a tanker just rewarded a fema grant this year for at least 2000gallon 500gpm. The amount of money we put in covered a 2000gallon, after looking around we can get a 3000 for the same price.
    Good point about the bridges!, since we do have a few have to look into that
    We are located in a hilly terrain and the tandem will give it more stabability from what I was told compared to a single axle.
    Mutral aid 15 minutes
    currently have in-service 1000gal pumper 1250gpm, and 500gal. 750gpm


    Thanks,
    Chris

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    Default Intended Use

    Is your intended use purely water hauling? If it was me I would go with a smaller tank and a larger pump so you would have the ability as a second due to put a serious knock on the fire before a shuttle.

    The pumper/tanker concept isn't for everyone, but it works here. All of our tankers are pumper/tankers...1500/4000, 1000/2500, 1000/1500 and thats how its always been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    Check your bridge weight limits. You can put 2500gal on a single axle if your bridges can handle it. You can go 52k GVWR on a single axle
    If you need 3000gal there is nothing left of building anyway.

    52,000 lbs on a single drive axle truck? I have not seen axles rated at such a capacity. And if there are... why? Losing the 2nd drive axle get you less tires for more ground pressure per tire, which only helps you sink if you get off the pavement and the groud is a bit soft. ( Tell me you never had a barn fire and the ground was soft from a recent rain)

    And more importantly, why would you want less brakes? Even the heaviest axles I've worked with still have the 30sq. inch brake chambers and 16.5 inch brake drums w/ the same Rockwell Q shoes I see on many lighter axles. Bigger axle doesn't always mean bigger brakes.

    With that kind of weight, you want more handling and braking capacity to manage the load. Subtracting a component doesn't get you more.

    Incidently, we have a 4000gal tandem axle tanker that weighs in around 53,000 fully wet. And we are thinking we should have spec'd it out with a pusher axle. There is a simple reason why some straight trucks on the road have 5 or 6 axles under them. BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Why not buy a 1000 gallon tank and use the money that would be spent for the other 2K and buy a CAFS system? Extend that 1000K of water!
    Good idea. But then again, if you can get the money, think of the knockdown power of the 3,000-4,000 tanker combined with CAFS!

    Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 great suggestion. 1000gal with CAFS will knock down a LOT of fire.
    Can you get a cafs system on a tanker? it would add a lot of $$$
    Yes, you can get CAFS on a tanker. Why would it cost more $$$ to put it on the tanker than on the pumper?

    And wouldn't 3,000 gal with CAFS knock down a LOT MORE fire? It all depends on your area. We examined things closely and determined that CAFS with 2,000 gallons of water was the number that would work best for us, and it's given us a great package. FWD and CE11 I'm sure looked at their area and decided that CAFS and 600 gallons would work best for them. And if NEIOWA gets CAFS and 3,500 gallons, then that's what will work for them. (BTW - any luck there yet, NEIOWA?)

    Originally Posted by neiowa Do tell?? You're just tired and ready to go home after using up your 500gal? All of us working tanker shuttle/LHD lay are wasting our time?

    Perhaps you might have some exposures to attend to?
    I was really hoping somebody was going to come in and make that exact comment.

    And the tandem axles - yes, good idea. There are enough tanker accidents - why do we need to push our luck by stressing our braking power to its limits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunlocklt View Post
    I am looking for some advise as to the pros and cons of a 2000gallon and 3000gallon tanker.

    Pretty much know
    kenworth chassis 330 for 2000, 360 for 3000
    pump 500gpm
    so where are you and what are you trying to do? here in eastern washington water can be a long time out. there are many 3500 to 4500s on tandems and some 5000 to 8000 trailers. I have been on brush/grass fires with over 35,000 of trender, but our brush trucks a 800 to 1500. but thats just here. the question is what is your need.

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    You can have a 31k rear axle and a 21k front. I have seen single axle quints that use these axles. I wouldent recommend 2500gal on a single axle, but it can be done.
    Yes a tandem axle would be better, but at more cost and a bit longer.

    We roll with 4000gal between four trucks. Unless its a VERY large building, which is not to often, we amost never call for tanker support. We have used tanker shuttles in the past on a house fire, and it wouldent make a difference. They were a total loss.
    2000gal with CAFS could knock down 99% of our fires with water left over.

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    Ours is 3000 gallons with a 1500gpm pump, two 1.75" crosslays, a 2.5" crosslay, side & rear dumps, etc. Its like a big engine with dump valves. It makes a great tanker and it can act as an engine if we need it. Highly recommended.

    Tandem axles on a freightshaker chassis.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    We were recently awarded a fema grant this year for a 2000gallon 500gpm tanker. After looking around we can get a 3000gallon for the same price.
    Rural area about 15minutes mutual aid, hilly terrain
    good point about the bridges!
    currently have in service 1000gallon 1250gpm pumper, 500gallon 750gpm pumper.

    Is a tandam better for stability and breaking?

    Thanks,
    Chris

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    Around here tankers are 2200-4000 gallons.Cafs units are few and far between,about 3 or 4 in a 40 mile radius.1000 gallon tanker? Only screws up the evolution,they DO NOT work in our system.And we've had numerous fires where the use of water in excess of 20,000 gallons was not uncommon.We have a 2200 gal presently,when it is replaced it will be at least 3000 gallons.Self loader if we can swing it. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunlocklt View Post
    We were recently awarded a fema grant this year for a 2000gallon 500gpm tanker. After looking around we can get a 3000gallon for the same price.
    Rural area about 15minutes mutual aid, hilly terrain
    good point about the bridges!
    currently have in service 1000gallon 1250gpm pumper, 500gallon 750gpm pumper.

    Is a tandam better for stability and breaking?

    Thanks,
    Chris
    tandem will be out perform a single in stability and breaking. also as a plus you will find higher hp rated engines in tandems. with hilly terrain you don't want to be under powered. It kinda like having a 1000 lbs on a S10 compared to a 1ton daully, there is no comparing. I still haven't read what exactly you have for terrain. Forest, grass, sagebrush, rock, desert???

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    BRAKING not breaking sorry. should type slower and proof. my bad

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    Default Cant go over 750 gpm pump

    With the 2007 FIRE Act rules - a tanker is a truck with over 1000 gallons and a pump of 750 gpm or less. If you have a 2000 gallon tank and a 1000 gpm pump, its now a Engine and DHS will want its $$ back because you asked for a tanker but bought an engine (by new 2007 DHS rules).

    So - he can increase his tank size to any size he wants to pay for - as long as its equal or greater to the size he spec'd in grant application, but the pump can't be greater than a 750 gpm.

    BTW - we use water shuttles all of the time - I know CAF will stretch your water but most of us don't have it and have to rely on tanker shuttles. We have even mutual aided to larger towns/cities for large fires where their hydrant system wouldn't keep up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunlocklt View Post
    We were recently awarded a fema grant this year for a 2000gallon 500gpm tanker. After looking around we can get a 3000gallon for the same price.
    Rural area about 15minutes mutual aid, hilly terrain
    good point about the bridges!
    currently have in service 1000gallon 1250gpm pumper, 500gallon 750gpm pumper.

    Is a tandam better for stability and breaking?

    Thanks,
    Chris
    If you have hilly terrain, make sure you are getting a beefy enough motor on that truck. I would really really suggest a tandem axle on the truck also. Yes, it will add some more cost and length to the truck, but depending on how hilly your terrain is you will be glad you did it. Next week we are ordering a new custom cab tanker/pumper. We decided to go with a 1500 GPM Hale QMAX side mount pump and 2500 gallon tank with chutes. We cut down 4 feet on the overall length by going side mount. We are laid out similar to you it seems; semi-hilly terrain and mutual aid 15 minutes away. We currently have two 1250gpm/1000gal pumpers and one 1000gpm/3000gal tanker/pumper.
    Assistant Chief
    Elberta Volunteer Fire Department
    http://www.elbertafire.com

    "Find a purpose in life so big, it will challenge every capacity to be at your best."

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    Thanks everyone for your advice, sorry for the multiple posts


    "So - he can increase his tank size to any size he wants to pay for - as long as its equal or greater to the size he spec'd in grant application, but the pump can't be greater than a 750 gpm."

    mitchkrat
    Where can I find actual proof that we can get a bigger tank without a problem since we put in for a 2000 gallon (not looking to increase the pump)

    LCFD1L101
    so where are you? and what are you trying to do?
    NORTHEAST PA, RURAL, FOREST, AG. AREA, POP. EST. 3000.

    How does CAFS work?

    Thanks Again!
    chris

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    [QUOTE=hunlocklt;851494]
    " NORTHEAST PA, RURAL, FOREST, AG. AREA, POP. EST. 3000."

    I suspect you're looking at different configurations of the ISC Cummins, or C7 Cat. I ran through your turf many times in my trucking days. With the amount of water you want to carry, and your terrain, I'd suggest an ISL Cummins at a minimum and more preferably, an ISM or C13 Cat. More bucks, but will probably cost less over the lifetime of the truck.

    Stay safe out there, everyone goes home!

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    Default Here link to the thread on tanker vs engine

    Quote Originally Posted by hunlocklt View Post
    Thanks everyone for your advice, sorry for the multiple posts


    "So - he can increase his tank size to any size he wants to pay for - as long as its equal or greater to the size he spec'd in grant application, but the pump can't be greater than a 750 gpm."

    mitchkrat
    Where can I find actual proof that we can get a bigger tank without a problem since we put in for a 2000 gallon (not looking to increase the pump)

    LCFD1L101
    so where are you? and what are you trying to do?
    NORTHEAST PA, RURAL, FOREST, AG. AREA, POP. EST. 3000.

    How does CAFS work?

    Thanks Again!
    chris
    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=93172
    This is a link to the forum on FIRE Act Grants and specifically dealing with upgrading a tanker award.

    This year the rules changed on what is a tanker. Past years, if it carried more than a 1000 gallons, it was a tanker. This year, if it has a pump bigger than 750 gpm, then its a engine.

    In 2005 - we were awarded a grant for a tanker - 2500 gallons/1250 gpm pump. I screwed up this year - I could have applied for another tanker because according to the new rules - I no longer have a tanker but have a engine with a big tank. So technically I have 2 engines and no tankers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunlocklt View Post
    Right now we need a tanker just rewarded a fema grant this year for at least 2000gallon 500gpm. The amount of money we put in covered a 2000gallon, after looking around we can get a 3000 for the same price.
    Good point about the bridges!, since we do have a few have to look into that
    We are located in a hilly terrain and the tandem will give it more stabability from what I was told compared to a single axle.
    Mutral aid 15 minutes
    currently have in-service 1000gal pumper 1250gpm, and 500gal. 750gpm


    Thanks,
    Chris
    Cost of a tandem is only $2500-5000 more than a single. Ceratinly worth the cost when you get over 2000gal.

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    I really wish I could find it, but I'm not having any luck, but there's an article in a past Fire Rescue magazine in regards to tank size and shuttle efficiency. In that article had a number of calculation and such to support the findings.

    Anyway, if I remember everything correctly, the optimal size they found for shuttling was 1,800-2,000. This took into account fill and dump times. They talked the max was around 2,500 gallons.

    This is one of the areas I based our pumper/tanker's capacity (2,500 gallons) when we got a grant a couple of years ago. More important in that decision was the fact that our surrounding departments all use 2,500 gallon tankers. Everyone, for the most part at least, match up well.

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    Catch,I remember the article but all the fancy calculations aside it depends on your system.WE use big tankers here,most in excess of 2500 gal with the majority being 3000-3500.Our fills and dumps are set up for this size.Anything smaller screws up the evolution.And we've moved serious water(in excess of 650gpm)with this system for a period EXCEEDING 3 hrs.It's all in how you engineer the rigs and co-ordinate the fills and drops.And with square dumps,shedding water isn't very time consuming.Some other places would be overwhelmed using our equipment/and methods.It's all in how you set it up and what you have to work with. Other places can't use anything much bigger than 1500 gal.Lots of variables but for us we're surrounded by water and are set up to move it. T.C.

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