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    Default 1,000 GPM Hand-stretch

    Scenario: Your response area has many properties that would require a 1,000gpm portable master stream to be quickly placed into operation 400-800 feet from the apparatus. Due to the arrangement of the properties, the line(s) to supply the deluge set must be hand stretched – reverse laying is not an option. Assume that your engine is routinely short-staffed with 3 (driver, officer, firefighter), and your hosebed is <72” from the ground for easy access & shouldering. Hose sizes/lengths are whatever you like.

    Question: If you could setup your hosebed in any way, what would be the fastest, most efficient method to reach your objective 400-800 feet away and flow 1,000 gpm through a portable monitor? What hose size(s) would you choose? How would you arrange the bed? What hose loads would you use – all straight/flat lay, or some type of shoulder carry? Would anything be preconnected? When you make the stretch, who takes the monitor, and who takes how much hose? What tip would you use on the monitor, and at what NP and PDP? Would you use any type of shutoff, and when would the driver charge the line(s)? What method would you use to secure the monitor for operation, and who would take the tools/equipment to do that?

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    flat loaded 3 inch. FF and officer shoulder one section each for 400 feet to a smooth bore ground monitor the d/o has brought. set it up as you normally would. 1000gpm theoretical flow. d/o goes back to the truck and makes hte hookups. done and done.

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    I agree with Leatherhead. The d/o should hang back at the truck for a few secs to help pull off some hose as the 2 FF's hand jack the hose.

    Someone will probably have to make a second trip to bring the pry bar and axe or whatever you use to secure the ground monitor so it won't move around.

    You would use a 2" smooth bore to achieve that 1000 gpm.


    I have to ask though, would it not be more practical to put 1 2" or 2.5" or 3" line in service more quickly than the ground monitor? My thinking is that this sounds like a rural situation so water supply is probably an issue here. Why not try to do more with the water that you have with you instead of letting the fire grow while you are trying to set up the ground monitor and your limited water now not being as effective? Because without a water supply that tank is only going to last as long as a virgin on prom night. Once you have a continuous (or as continuous as rural water shuttles can be) water supply, you can then set up that ground monitor. Hopefully by then you will have more manpower onscene to assist.

    Just a thought and I could be really off base here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFDLT1 View Post
    I agree with Leatherhead. The d/o should hang back at the truck for a few secs to help pull off some hose as the 2 FF's hand jack the hose.

    Someone will probably have to make a second trip to bring the pry bar and axe or whatever you use to secure the ground monitor so it won't move around.

    You would use a 2" smooth bore to achieve that 1000 gpm.


    I have to ask though, would it not be more practical to put 1 2" or 2.5" or 3" line in service more quickly than the ground monitor? My thinking is that this sounds like a rural situation so water supply is probably an issue here. Why not try to do more with the water that you have with you instead of letting the fire grow while you are trying to set up the ground monitor and your limited water now not being as effective? Because without a water supply that tank is only going to last as long as a virgin on prom night. Once you have a continuous (or as continuous as rural water shuttles can be) water supply, you can then set up that ground monitor. Hopefully by then you will have more manpower onscene to assist.

    Just a thought and I could be really off base here.
    Or could you start the attack with a monitor like the blitzfire monitor made by TFT that was already pre connected?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeatherHed4Life View Post
    flat loaded 3 inch. FF and officer shoulder one section each for 400 feet to a smooth bore ground monitor the d/o has brought. set it up as you normally would. 1000gpm theoretical flow. d/o goes back to the truck and makes hte hookups. done and done.
    Sounds good. I'm assuming that you're speaking of flipping each carry section onto the shoulder, standard flat-load style? So we'd be talking 200', ~140 lb. shoulder carries for each? What about something over 400 feet - let's say in the 600-800 foot range?

    Originally Posted by GFDLT1 I agree with Leatherhead. The d/o should hang back at the truck for a few secs to help pull off some hose as the 2 FF's hand jack the hose.

    Someone will probably have to make a second trip to bring the pry bar and axe or whatever you use to secure the ground monitor so it won't move around.

    You would use a 2" smooth bore to achieve that 1000 gpm.
    Yes, I agree on the 2" SB - provided you have some kind of shutoff so that you can change tip sizes if necessary. In your proposal, why not have the D/O bring the stuff to secure the monitor?

    I have to ask though, would it not be more practical to put 1 2" or 2.5" or 3" line in service more quickly than the ground monitor? My thinking is that this sounds like a rural situation so water supply is probably an issue here. Why not try to do more with the water that you have with you instead of letting the fire grow while you are trying to set up the ground monitor and your limited water now not being as effective? Because without a water supply that tank is only going to last as long as a virgin on prom night. Once you have a continuous (or as continuous as rural water shuttles can be) water supply, you can then set up that ground monitor. Hopefully by then you will have more manpower onscene to assist.

    Just a thought and I could be really off base here.
    Even if we were to drop to 500 gpm (Blitzfire-type device), the 2" and the 2 1/2" just wouldn't cut it in the 400-800' distance range that we're talking about.

    The fact is, there are those fires that need 1,000+ gpm streams, and they need them immediately. The 500gpm streams on those fires are almost p*ssing in the wind. I'm a big fan of 500 gpm blitz lines, but not when you need something bigger. And as we all know, two 500 gpm streams is not going to equal a single 1,000 gpm stream for those fires.

    We could be talking rural, or we could be talking urban - either way, we have the ability to permanently supply the full 1,000gpm in fairly short order.

    Or could you start the attack with a monitor like the blitzfire monitor made by TFT that was already pre connected?
    Yes, there's nothing wrong with starting with the Blitzfire, providing you are immediately going to get higher flows going, but do you have a 400-800' Blitzfire line preconnected?
    Last edited by BlitzfireSolo; 08-15-2007 at 12:09 AM.

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    Are you just quizzing the rest of us to see if we will tell you what you are already planning on doing?

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    Are you adding more hose to your new rig? Just for curiosity sake.

    Instead of adding more hose, why not modify your current bed? Instead of 1600-1600-1600 of 5", perhaps 1600-800-800-1600.

    Reasoning behind this...

    If you need to stretch a line for a ground monitor... one of those 800 beds would be perfect. Granted, 5" is a pain in the *** to stretch, but three guys should be able to accomplish it fairly quickly.

    If you need to lay dual lines, pull each of the 800 foot line's couplings and you're all set. If you need to lay just one line, the driver stops after 2400 feet and connects the couplings. (Don't you have to do that now anyways?)

    You'd still have the ability to lay three 1600 foot lines if you didn't connect the 800s to the 1600s and merely added a divider into one of your current hose beds.

    confused much?
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    I am having trouble picturing what you would need a 1000 gal immediately for that is not going to be made into a parking lot?

    If you are in the urban scene then most of those departments only have tanks of about 500 gal, so until you establish your water supply you won't get your 1000 gal. If you are in the rural setting with an eng that is carrying 1000 to 1250 gals then you are only going to get that 1000 gal for a min or less once you take away the water needed to fill the hose.

    So either way you are losing that d/o who is going to have to establish a water supply to maintain your 1000 gpms.

    Obvisiously I am not telling you what you want to hear, so I am bowing out of this one gracefully. I hope you find the answer you are looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GFDLT1 View Post
    I am having trouble picturing what you would need a 1000 gal immediately for that is not going to be made into a parking lot?

    If you are in the urban scene then most of those departments only have tanks of about 500 gal, so until you establish your water supply you won't get your 1000 gal. If you are in the rural setting with an eng that is carrying 1000 to 1250 gals then you are only going to get that 1000 gal for a min or less once you take away the water needed to fill the hose.

    So either way you are losing that d/o who is going to have to establish a water supply to maintain your 1000 gpms.
    Go take a look in the Apparatus Innovation forum under the second page in a thread called "Monster Bumper". You'll see one of Blitzfire's rigs. Hehehe
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Are you just quizzing the rest of us to see if we will tell you what you are already planning on doing?
    No. I have had some ideas, but I really want to get some ideas from others

    343 - No, probably not adding additional hose - more of a general question. Does anybody have suggestions for "efficiently" hand-jacking 5"? I seem to recall that there was an article about it in Fire Engineering (oops!) a few years back - not sure exactly when.

    GFDLT - I appreciate your input - I already said that I liked some of your ideas. I'm just trying to glean what I can and try to weigh out all of the options.

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    [QUOTE= Does anybody have suggestions for "efficiently" hand-jacking 5"? I seem to recall that there was an article about it in Fire Engineering (oops!) a few years back - not sure exactly when.[/QUOTE]

    Not sure on the article, but the few times i've had to handjack back to plug... I'll pull off 100-150 Ft straight back then return and do the same until have enough hose on the ground and then go back and pull my first loop towards the plug... If done like this you end up with loops on the ground with the coupling towards the plug...

    I've only done this on short pulls around 250 to 350 feet... So trying one up to 800 feet would take a little time,but if all 3 helped I think it could be done within 5 mins..


    Jason
    Last edited by TAFDTruck5FF; 08-15-2007 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAFDTruck5FF View Post
    Not sure on the article, but the few times i've had to handjack back to plug... I'll pull off 100-150 Ft straight back then return and do the same until have enough hose on the ground and then go back and pull my first loop towards the plug... If done like this you end up with loops on the ground with the coupling towards the plug...

    I've only done this on short pulls around 250 to 350 feet... So trying one up to 800 feet would take a little time,but if all 3 helped I think it could be done within 5 mins..


    Jason
    This is probably the best method for such a long stretch. See Bill Gustins article a few months back in FE magazine. It was more about stretching lines up to 3" but he speaks of the concept explained above.

    I would say having a bed set up just for this purpose would limit your options for other situations. Perhaps consider a multipurpose bed with a water thief at the end and a 25' section of line to feed the gun off the thief.

    Have you sat and run the numbers for FL over those distances?

    You CANT do it hydraulically with a single 3" line. A 5" line would be your only option based on what I remember of your hosebeds. It seems strange to me that you would have a spot where you have to run 800' of 5" by hand. No other rigs can access these locations? Give us more info please

    Why is 1000 GPM your magic number, out of curiosity? Why wouldnt 750 wok, or 500? Don;t your new rigs have CAF? Wouldnt this limit the required water flow, thereby enabling you to use 3" hose?

    Check out Akrons Mercury master 1000 GPM mini monitor.

    http://www.akronbrass.com/uploadedFi...rs-Mercury.pdf

    Interesting discussion.
    Last edited by MG3610; 08-15-2007 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TAFDTruck5FF View Post
    Not sure on the article, but the few times i've had to handjack back to plug... I'll pull off 100-150 Ft straight back then return and do the same until have enough hose on the ground and then go back and pull my first loop towards the plug... If done like this you end up with loops on the ground with the coupling towards the plug...

    I've only done this on short pulls around 250 to 350 feet... So trying one up to 800 feet would take a little time,but if all 3 helped I think it could be done within 5 mins..


    Jason
    Sounds interesting. I will have to take a look at the article that MG refers to. I will also look for the older FE article. Has anybody ever practiced this with a crew of 3 or 4 in rapid succession? Any pictures to help illustrate would be great.

    MG, to give you one example from our own town, we have some 150' x 400' barns that we need to position ~150' away from. It is either impossible to access the rear of them, or you would need a 4x4 pumper with floatation tires - driving immediately next to the fire building.

    In other situations, an engine might be able to access the area that needs the master stream, but we wouldn't have the luxury of an additional engine in the early stages of the operation, so the site is distant from the first-due engine.

    One city that we do a lot of mutual aid with has an old downtown with lots of closely packed Type 3 construction and old mill buildings. They are very short-staffed, so using a single engine to place multiple master streams into operation hundreds of feet apart might be necessary.

    As I mentioned earlier, this is more of a general search for ideas than something that we are considering doing. Just gathering ideas on "best practices".

    As far as hose size: I know that a single 3" wouldn't work at that distance and flow. I have been thinking of either a single LDH line, or dual 3" lines (although it would be double the length of hose to stretch, I almost wonder if it would be faster and easier to hand stretch dual 600' 3" lines than a single 600' 5" line).....I don't know - that's why I'm looking for ideas and experiences.

    And 1,000gpm is not a magic number, but it seems to be commonly accepted as a "full-blown" portable master stream - the hardest hitting portable stream available, without going to wheeled appliances (well, almost - Elkhart's new Stinger 2.0 is rated at 1,250gpm in portable mode).

    CAF is good, and will hopefully put out most of our fires, but once the fire gets to a certain point, it's time to shut off the CAF system and lob as much water as possible.

    We looked at the Mercury and almost bought one - the primary reason we chose against it was that we already owned two Stingers, and we wanted to standardize the portable deluge sets.

    Keep the ideas coming!

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    We have a few "bungalow" areas along the beach where we would have to pull ~500' from the engine to make an attack. We've practiced it, but it ain't quick. We have a dead lay of 800' of 2 1/2", 2 "bungalow packs", and a gated wye. The bungalow packs consist of 100' of 1 3/4" line with a nozzle strapped together.

    Nozzleman grabs 1 bungalow pack (the one that has the gated wye attached) + irons and brings it to the fire.
    Backup man grabs the 2 1/2" and pulls about 30' onto his shoulder and starts walking toward the fire.
    Door man pulls 2 1/2" off the bed as backup walks away. At 200', door man starts walking with hose towards fire.
    Control man takes over pulling 2 1/2" off the bed. When the hose it where it needs to reach, he disconnects from bed and connects to discharge.

    When nozzleman drops the bag, he unstraps and stretches the 1 3/4" line. Backup man reaches the dropped bag, connects the 2 1/2", opens the gate and goes to backup nozzle.
    Doorman comes up and stays by gated valve.
    Control man will bring second bungalow pack up to scene and he and doorman will stretch second line.

    Yes, this takes some coordination but it works. Course, you need a driver plus 4 FF's on the engine.


    We are currently setting up our utility vehicle, which is 4 wheel drive, to carry the 2 1/2" so it can drive over the sand and drop the line instead of us having to drag it. That would also give us more tools directly at the scene than what we are currently carrying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    Sounds good. I'm assuming that you're speaking of flipping each carry section onto the shoulder, standard flat-load style? So we'd be talking 200', ~140 lb. shoulder carries for each? What about something over 400 feet - let's say in the 600-800 foot range?
    No, I'm talking about grabbing a male coupling and walking away from the truck. With a flat load it will just pay off the top and you can pull for 400ft, 800 ft whatever you need without shouldering the load. granted with an 800 ft stretch your going to have to make a trip back. its gets hard that far way from the truck.

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    Thumbs up Hey Bones...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    We are currently setting up our utility vehicle, which is 4 wheel drive, to carry the 2 1/2" so it can drive over the sand and drop the line instead of us having to drag it. That would also give us more tools directly at the scene than what we are currently carrying.

    In case you missed another post I made on this subject, Ocean City Md. has done that, with good results. Their pickup carries a monitor, hose, tools and a pump. It should be on the website at www.ocvfc.com
    Last edited by hwoods; 08-17-2007 at 01:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    We have a dead lay of 800' of 2 1/2", 2 "bungalow packs", and a gated wye. The bungalow packs consist of 100' of 1 3/4" line with a nozzle strapped together.
    ...
    When nozzleman drops the bag, he unstraps and stretches the 1 3/4" line. Backup man reaches the dropped bag, connects the 2 1/2", opens the gate and goes to backup nozzle.
    Doorman comes up and stays by gated valve.
    Control man will bring second bungalow pack up to scene and he and doorman will stretch second line.
    Off topic, but why open the gate right away? If the gate was kept closed couldn't you charge the 800' while the first line is flaked and/or 2nd line connected?

    We do something very similar for our garden-style apartments except that it's 3" and preconnected.
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    Hwoods, I saw that. Thanks again for that info.

    voyager9, in our practices, the bag has been dropped and the 1 3/4" flaked out for the most part before the 2 1/2" arrives. It's quick and easy to grab the bag and go. It takes a little more time for the 2 1/2" stretch. By the time the 2 1/2" reaches the wye and gets radioed back to the engine (for disconnect and hookup) the 1 3/4" line is flaked and ready to make entry. The guy opens the gate as soon as he's connected and then moves up to backup the nozzle.
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    This is my way to accomplish the stretch....

    1.) Pull the engine as close as possible. If we can angle the hosebed towards the stretch things will go easier.
    2.) Stretch the 5", shoulder the couplings and leave the loops behind you, this will take the majority of the friction off the ground making it easier to pull. One man can pull 2 sections of 100' lengths by himself fairly well.
    3.) Then just have the others ff's pull hose, the MPO should help too since the pump ain't running until the stretch is done.
    4.) The last man on the stretch can get the base and or monitor off the engine before it drives off.
    4.) Then at that point the MPO should drive to the plug and make his steamer connection. In doing that it will make the most advantage of the hydrant pressure and he can the hook up the side 2.5" outlet to another 5" intake on the pump and maximize the plug's water.

    w/ 4 of my engine crew, we can do it

    FYI Dave McGrail from Denver did a drill with his companies where they stretched a hi rise simulating the imfamous 1 Meridian Plaza 5" stairs stretch during a training... Maybe some DFD guys can chime in on how that went.

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