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  1. #21
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    I was born here.That,by God,makes me a native.


    Quote Originally Posted by SapphyreBlues View Post
    You must be able to claim at least 1/16 Native American ancestry before you can be considered a true native.


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    Raughammer1:"Lastly, i think the tribe and only the tribe needs to determine what are the qualifications for being considered a member of said tribe".

    If you believe that then the illegal aliens did not get scammed and are now a proud member of the Kaweah Indian Nation.

    I believe another benefit of being classified as a Native American is that if you don't want to go to war, the Government can't make you go.
    Last edited by SamuelFire; 08-20-2007 at 05:12 PM.

  3. #23
    Forum Member SapphyreBlues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    K, you just stepped in it with me. Bigtime.

    I have a "British" last name...how I ended up with it, I have no idea, it's possible that it was "converted" from the original to something more "phonetically palatable" to the government. Gee, that never happened at Ellis Island, did it????

    I am 1/4 Pawnee, 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/16th Kiowa... so doing the math, that makes me a full whopping 16th away from being half Native. Because of Pawnee Tribal law, I can only claim affiliation and be registered with them, or another Tribe, there is no "dual membership".
    As for "white blood" getting one disqualified, well that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. After all, if they require someone be 1/8th degree of bloodline, what do they think the other 7/8ths are?!?!?!
    Of the remaining 9/16ths of me that isn't Native, a goodly chunk of that is Austrian... so if your British blood disqualifies you, I guess I ought to get the boot, too, huh?
    I only said what I did about my English heritage to prove that I don't have enough Indian ancestry to get native American citizenship. It's not about being British/Irish, or being white. I simply don't have enough Indian bloodline to prove my ancestry. If I had enough, and they still disqualified me, that would be entirely different. All I'm saying is I don't qualify to begin with. If you can't prove it, you shouldn't be able to get it. Period. You sound to me like a Native. But I can't help what the Pawnee laws require.

    As for "suckin from the gov't teat" or "joining to get benefits", yeah, I see a check every year...want to know how much my annuity is from the Pawnee Nation? $12. Oh yeah, every year's like I won the lottery!!!
    About the only tangible benefit I derive from Tribal membership was if I applied for a BIA job...Indian Preference Act hiring. Then again, I don't really have much interest in any of the jobs they have, so that doesn't do much good either.
    I don't know anything about the Pawnees. So I know nothing of their benefits, etc. Do you deserve it? Yes. Why? Your ancestry. you can prove it while others can't. That's a huge difference.


    I will say that I do see certain California Tribes running around with casinos, living in mansions and all driving Escalades and H2s, not every Tribe runs the show that way, and to stereotype all Natives in that way is just plain ignorant. I'm as ashamed of the people running around with 5 Escalades in their front lawn as you are angry about it.... but then again, people don't have to patronize those casinos if they don't want to.
    I don't go to casinos. If anyone else does, it's their business. All I said about casinos is that the Cherokee get money from them. I said Nothing about stereotypes. I don't know where you did, but it wasn't in my post. I mentioned the $300 Million from the gov't, and what they get from them. That's all. And who said I was angry about them running around with 5 Escalades????? Who said I was angry in the first place?

    It just really irritates the living $#!T out of me that you so blithely assume that anyone who has or seeks Tribal membership does so because of a perceived monetary benefit. As a child and young adult, I attended many pow-wows throughout California and beyond, dressed and did Southern Dance, and even sang on a couple of Southern drums...time and monetary constraints have taken those things away from me as I've grown up, but to say the things you did really hit an angry nerve with me.
    Where - where- did I say that anyone who seeks membership does it because of money? I never said anything like that. I just said that I wouldn't do it. And from there, you assume that I mean it for everybody? and I spoke of those being kicked off the Cherokee roll. Well poo for them...they weren't Cherokee to begin with.

    I suggest you re-read my post. Slowly. And don't skip things, or read stuff that isn't there this time.

  4. #24
    Forum Member SapphyreBlues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    I was born here.That,by God,makes me a native.
    Maybe not Indian, but 100% American. And the Americans are a great tribe to belong to

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuelFire View Post
    Raughammer1:"Lastly, i think the tribe and only the tribe needs to determine what are the qualifications for being considered a member of said tribe".

    If you believe that then the illegal aliens did not get scammed and are now a proud member of the Kaweah Indian Nation.
    LOL, um, er, wrongo' my good man. Those illegals were scammed by folks who did not belong to a real, certified true indian tribe. Not a real tribe but a ficticious group made up by some fella in a back room as a way scamming illegals.

    So, and i am sorry to correct you here, but your hypothesis is wrong amigo.
    Feel free to try again but in this case, you are incorrect.

    Of course i could be in error and if i am in error i hope that you correct me forthwith.
    Have a nice day.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphyreBlues View Post

    I suggest you re-read my post. Slowly. And don't skip things, or read stuff that isn't there this time.
    Sir, you handled that well and with style: I applaud you.

  7. #27
    Forum Member SapphyreBlues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    Sir, you handled that well and with style: I applaud you.
    Well thank you

    And now just might be the appropriate time to let you know I'm a woman But that's ok. Believe me, I've been called a lot worse things than "sir"

  8. #28
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    Here's a dumb question, especially since we are talking about Hispanic immigrants (I'm assuming). Are these people not Native Americans themselves? Decendants of the Aztecs, or Incas if they're from South America?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Here's a dumb question, especially since we are talking about Hispanic immigrants (I'm assuming). Are these people not Native Americans themselves? Decendants of the Aztecs, or Incas if they're from South America?
    Even if they were straight up Aztec, they still couldn't become a Native American because their bloodline wouldn't trace back to the tribes we have here in the US. I mean, they could be "Native Americans" but their lineage traces back to a different part of the Americas.

    I hope that helps.

    And that's not a dumb question

  10. #30
    Forum Member Tooanfrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the1141man View Post
    K, you just stepped in it with me. Bigtime.

    I have a "British" last name...how I ended up with it, I have no idea, it's possible that it was "converted" from the original to something more "phonetically palatable" to the government. Gee, that never happened at Ellis Island, did it????

    I am 1/4 Pawnee, 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/16th Kiowa... so doing the math, that makes me a full whopping 16th away from being half Native. Because of Pawnee Tribal law, I can only claim affiliation and be registered with them, or another Tribe, there is no "dual membership".
    As for "white blood" getting one disqualified, well that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. After all, if they require someone be 1/8th degree of bloodline, what do they think the other 7/8ths are?!?!?!
    Of the remaining 9/16ths of me that isn't Native, a goodly chunk of that is Austrian... so if your British blood disqualifies you, I guess I ought to get the boot, too, huh?

    As for "suckin from the gov't teat" or "joining to get benefits", yeah, I see a check every year...want to know how much my annuity is from the Pawnee Nation? $12. Oh yeah, every year's like I won the lottery!!!
    About the only tangible benefit I derive from Tribal membership was if I applied for a BIA job...Indian Preference Act hiring. Then again, I don't really have much interest in any of the jobs they have, so that doesn't do much good either.

    I will say that I do see certain California Tribes running around with casinos, living in mansions and all driving Escalades and H2s, not every Tribe runs the show that way, and to stereotype all Natives in that way is just plain ignorant. I'm as ashamed of the people running around with 5 Escalades in their front lawn as you are angry about it.... but then again, people don't have to patronize those casinos if they don't want to.

    It just really irritates the living $#!T out of me that you so blithely assume that anyone who has or seeks Tribal membership does so because of a perceived monetary benefit. As a child and young adult, I attended many pow-wows throughout California and beyond, dressed and did Southern Dance, and even sang on a couple of Southern drums...time and monetary constraints have taken those things away from me as I've grown up, but to say the things you did really hit an angry nerve with me.
    My Irish uncle Shamus got killed at the Battle of the Little Big Horn--he was camping in the field next door--went over and complained about the noise!
    "If you thought it was hard getting into the job--wait until you have to hang the "fire gear"up and walk away!"
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapphyreBlues View Post
    Even if they were straight up Aztec, they still couldn't become a Native American because their bloodline wouldn't trace back to the tribes we have here in the US. I mean, they could be "Native Americans" but their lineage traces back to a different part of the Americas.

    I hope that helps.

    And that's not a dumb question
    Actually, I was being a smart *****

    I won't say that I'm pro-illegal, but I do find some irony that our society, a considerably amount of whose ancestors were immigrants (basically anyone who isn't 100% Native American), is so judgmental about Hispanics immigrating here. I do feel in this day an age, that they can take the steps to immigrate legally, but there are many of our ancestors who didn't.

    However, the majority of these people (the ones I'm familiar with in my area, at least) are coming here for a better life and are making an attempt to be productive. They work jobs no one else will, just to provide a better life for their families. This is a lot more than I can say for a number of the other citizens of our nation who sit on their tail collecting welfare or undeserved disability checks.

    And yes, I do feel for the ones getting scammed. This guy is making a profit lying to these people. Whether they are here legally or not, the SOB ought to have to be shipped off to a rat hole in Old Mexico to rot with the natives there.

  12. #32
    Forum Member SapphyreBlues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Actually, I was being a smart *****

    I won't say that I'm pro-illegal, but I do find some irony that our society, a considerably amount of whose ancestors were immigrants (basically anyone who isn't 100% Native American), is so judgmental about Hispanics immigrating here. I do feel in this day an age, that they can take the steps to immigrate legally, but there are many of our ancestors who didn't.

    However, the majority of these people (the ones I'm familiar with in my area, at least) are coming here for a better life and are making an attempt to be productive. They work jobs no one else will, just to provide a better life for their families. This is a lot more than I can say for a number of the other citizens of our nation who sit on their tail collecting welfare or undeserved disability checks.

    And yes, I do feel for the ones getting scammed. This guy is making a profit lying to these people. Whether they are here legally or not, the SOB ought to have to be shipped off to a rat hole in Old Mexico to rot with the natives there.
    Yeah, I guess I missed the tone of your post

    Anyways, I am not against immigration. The vast majority of my ancestors were boat people. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that all of them were legal. I don't know.

    If people are coming over here for a better life - hey, fine - and good luck to you. But if you're coming over here to lay on welfare - stay home. We've got more than plenty doing that.

    The migrant workers I have seen do just that - work. When I was in Michigan for the summer a couple years back, at the crack of dawn, they were across the street picking cucumbers out of a huge field. They got paid, went to the store and sent the money home. They minded their own business and weren't a burden on anybody.

    As for the ones getting scammed, they're illegal. That in no way makes it right though. And I agree with you as to what should happen to the people pulling it. But for the illegals to be going along with that in the first place, shows they are trying to become legal. So the gov't needs to show them some support and tell them how they can do it legally. And it also shows that they aren't some thugs who came here and are up to no good.

  13. #33
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    Sapphyre: Good job taking the "high" road...disavow, redirect, deny. You should go into politics, m'lady, you'd do wonderfully. Let me direct your attention to the post which I replied to, and look at one particular spot, I'll even highlight it so you don't miss it....

    But here's the thing. The Cherokee get $300 Million a year from the gov't. Not to mention what all they get off the casino's. And the members of the tribe get some of that money in the form of a check. At least that's to my understanding. So really what it comes down to is a bunch of peed off people who aren't gonna get a check anymore. Well boo hoo. Get a job.

    I have native ancestors. Some even died on the Trail of Tears. Yes that's terrible. But you will not ever see me exploiting my ancestors just so I can get a check. I am not a true native, so I in no way deserve to live off of them like a leech.

    And even if I did want to stoop that low, my last name is Trent. That is wayyy British. I mean, it doesn't get any more English than that. So I could just see me hauling my Anglo Saxon hind end to the tribal office to get registered.
    The reason I'm so ****ed, ma'am, is because for some people it isn't just about a damned CHECK. Like I said: $12. A year. Big f'in WHOOP.
    Your post, however, make it sound like you view even that as "exploiting a heritage" or something thereunto resembling, and that is what I resent.

    A lot of people, especially around here, where you can't drive more than an hour in any direction without seeing SOME "Indian Gaming Casino" sign somewhere, are angry that the Indians are making money hand over fist, living in mansions on their Res's, and have 4-car garages packed full of Escalades and H2s, with the Beemer and the Benz out in the driveway, too. Hell, I'm ashamed of it...a lot of Natives around here make it out that they deserve those nice homes, cars, etc, cause they're Native, and flaunt them at the middle-to-lower-class communities around them. That, to me, is a disgrace....both to themselves and to the rest of the Native community at large.
    People don't see Oto, Kiowa, Paiute, Blackfeet, Chukchansi, Pawnee, or Lakota...all they see is "This is how Indians act."
    It leads to stereotyping, and it leads to the degradation of the Native peoples all over the country in the eyes of others.

    Oh, and one last thing:
    Even if they were straight up Aztec, they still couldn't become a Native American because their bloodline wouldn't trace back to the tribes we have here in the US. I mean, they could be "Native Americans" but their lineage traces back to a different part of the Americas.
    Anthropologists studying Native Americans seem to believe that most actually came from either South America or the northeastern Asian continent via the Aleutian Islands, much as it's believed Alaskan Natives did...only they continued their journey further southeast than their cold-dwelling cousins. The Pawnee, for example, are believed by some to be an offshoot of a South American tribe that moved north some many thousands of years ago, who called themselves the Caddohaudachos. Anthropologists also believe that the Caddo Tribe (as listed in that "complete listing of BIA-recognized tribes") would be distaff cousins of the Pawnee. It also means that if you want to go to that level of "technicality", the Caddo and Pawnee at least, aren't "true" Natives either. Then again, a lot of other tribes would also be in the same "boat" (or moccasin)....

    As for "not helping what Pawnee laws require"... I've been on the Pawnee Rolls since I was 3. If you wanted to "help" in that respect, you're more than a quarter-century late on that score, sorry.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    Actually, I was being a smart *****

    I won't say that I'm pro-illegal, but I do find some irony that our society, a considerably amount of whose ancestors were immigrants (basically anyone who isn't 100% Native American), is so judgmental about Hispanics immigrating here. I do feel in this day an age, that they can take the steps to immigrate legally, but there are many of our ancestors who didn't.

    However, the majority of these people (the ones I'm familiar with in my area, at least) are coming here for a better life and are making an attempt to be productive. They work jobs no one else will, just to provide a better life for their families. This is a lot more than I can say for a number of the other citizens of our nation who sit on their tail collecting welfare or undeserved disability checks.

    And yes, I do feel for the ones getting scammed. This guy is making a profit lying to these people. Whether they are here legally or not, the SOB ought to have to be shipped off to a rat hole in Old Mexico to rot with the natives there.
    The overwhelming majority of the European immigrants came here legally. The overwhelming majority of immigrants are coming here illegally. It matters not that they are coming here to make a better life for themselves. The European immigrants came here for the same reason.

    If they hold our country in such high regard, they should respect our laws as well.

    However, mass deportations, shooting them when they come over the border, putting them all in prison, etc. are stupid, low class responses to this problem. The number one priority is for our government to stop failing the citizens and secude that border. Once that happens, the illegal immigration problem can be addressed.

  15. #35
    Forum Member SapphyreBlues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    The overwhelming majority of the European immigrants came here legally. The overwhelming majority of immigrants are coming here illegally. It matters not that they are coming here to make a better life for themselves. The European immigrants came here for the same reason.

    If they hold our country in such high regard, they should respect our laws as well.

    However, mass deportations, shooting them when they come over the border, putting them all in prison, etc. are stupid, low class responses to this problem. The number one priority is for our government to stop failing the citizens and secude that border. Once that happens, the illegal immigration problem can be addressed.
    Gotta agree with you here.

    Now as for the borders. I have seen pics of nothing but miles of wire fencing that secures our borders. It doesn't take a mental giant looking at all the snipped holes to realize that isn't working. I believe it was Bush who suggested a block wall. Not entirely a bad idea, but that would be like building a mini wall of China. And any person desperate enough could dig under it, I suppose. So other than manning the borders some more, what can be done? And really, that's just like any other police force. They can't be everywhere, all the time. While it would slow the immigrants down some, it won't stop it.

    What they are doing now obviously isn't working. I have heard of some that have had to be deported multiple times. Shooting them? That's just wrong. I don't care if they are illegal. Prison? Sure. They have lots of room in there.

    Any thoughts about the border?

  16. #36
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    Wink

    I believe that we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,000 troops in Iraq.

    If we take half of them and deploy them to the US/Mexico border while leaving the other half as replacements and rotate them out every 6 months or so, we could have an armed border guard every 137.36 feet. That is assuming that my Kentucky math is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuelFire View Post
    I believe that we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,000 troops in Iraq.

    If we take half of them and deploy them to the US/Mexico border while leaving the other half as replacements and rotate them out every 6 months or so, we could have an armed border guard every 137.36 feet. That is assuming that my Kentucky math is correct.
    Your Kentucky math may be correct, but your Kentucky logic is very screwed up.

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    George,

    See the wink, I was being facetious.

    Your comprehension of the above statement is borderline hottrottish.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
    Mybe I should start my own tribe...

    The "Fakahwees"...
    Sounds like relatives of these folk -







    Andy
    When drilling and fighting get them down,
    They know their morale can't droop,
    As long as they all relax in town
    Before they resume, with a bang and a boom...F-Troop!
    Last edited by Murph64; 08-21-2007 at 04:55 PM.

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    From The Oklahoman:

    TULSA — The controversial status of freedmen in the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma was characterized as the "most significant civil rights movement of this century” at a town hall meeting headed by a member of the California congressional delegation.

    Rep. Diane Watson, D-Calif., introduced a bill that would cut off federal funding — about $300 million a year — to the Cherokee Nation unless it restores citizenship to freedmen.

    In a March 3 special election, 77 percent of about 8,000 Cherokees who voted decided to strip the freedmen of citizenship.

    About 150 people attended the meeting in the Rudisill Regional Library, most to support the bill introduced by Watson.

    The Watson entourage included, by her request, at least three members of the U.S. Capitol police force, a congressional agency.

    Two uniformed Tulsa police officers also were at the meeting.

    When a member of the audience — later identified as Gail Ross — was reluctant to give up the microphone, they took it from her and guided her to the rear of the auditorium.


    Treaty violation?
    Watson said actions resulting from the March election were in violation of an 1866 treaty and for that reason, the United States should not be providing funds to the Cherokee Nation.
    "The law says we can't use U.S. dollars to violate the law,” Watson said. American money can't be used to "discriminate.”

    The California representative told the group the only way to resolve this issue is to "return to full status” the freedmen.


    In response
    Chad Smith, principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, said later in a telephone interview that the proper place to settle the issue is in the courts, where there are three lawsuits pending in federal courts and one in a Cherokee tribal court.
    Until those lawsuits are settled, the freedmen retain previous rights and benefits in the Cherokee Nation. Smith said if the lawsuits support the election, the Cherokee Nation will help the freedmen transfer to other health care providers and ongoing treatment will "absolutely” continue.

    Passage of the bill would eliminate 6,500 jobs at Cherokee casinos and other businesses with a payroll of more than $184 million.

    Federal funds are used for health, housing and education, Smith said.

    Income from tribal businesses is divided, with 70 percent going into reinvestment and 30 percent to augment social programs and also to fund community projects such as roads and water systems.

    Verdie Triplett of the Choctaw-Chickasaw freedmen association, said historically, the black congressional caucus has always supported tribes in getting federal money.

    "Congress is the only locomotive monster they respect,” Triplett said. It is not a freedman issue "but an American issue because all Americans pay taxes,” he said.

    David Cornsilk said the March vote was illegal and "should have never happened.”

    Watson was scheduled to hold a similar forum Monday night in Muskogee

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